Ford to drop AM radio in new vehicles

[radio]

Is the AM band at any jeopardy from being desirable enough for mobile communications for FCC to auction it off, like with the TV spectrum?

Absolutely not. It is at it's highest and best use now for long-distance efficient communications. Think of how the hobby of "distant listening" works at night. Signals bounce where they may, while the primary coverage area of an AM is mainly unaffected. NO other use would be practical, so rest easy on that question.

 

[radio]

I have noticed that several music AM stations in both Tucson and Albuquerque sound "hollow and tinny" on their FM translators. This is especially true with 50,000 watt KDRI in Tucson which I always enjoy while driving from El Paso to Yuma. I am always tempted to switch to the FM version on 101.7 while actually in Tucson but quickly switch back to 830 AM.
Do broadcaster send a separate feed from their studio to both the site of the AM and FM transmitters (usually in different locations) ?

In the case of AM broadcasters with FM translators, we can feed the translator any way we want. They are what's known as "fill-in translators" and do not HAVE to pick up an existing signal and rebroadcast it, as in "repeating" the original. They can be fed by the internet, by an STL (studio transmitter linke) or a phone line, or any way to get the audio TO them. The ORIGINAL design of a translator WAS to be fed by the main station, and in the case of FM into FM like over the top of a mountain, they ARE, indeed fed by a tuner picking up the main station and feeding it to the translator's system, thus "translating" it to a different frequency. There are tuners made just FOR this by companies like FANFARE, where the tuner output is actually a composite output that directly feeds a lowe power transmitter, but...with AM, the quality goes back to the ol' saying, "Garbage In, Garbage Out." You cannot take a thin, nasty audio signal and make it sound good on FM just by repeating it. AM is allowed 10khz bandwidth, FM allowed 15 at present. Properly processed, you can't hear much difference between the two mediums. Feeding an FM translator from a badly processed AM will not improve the sound to the listener.

I'll close with this....I operate an AM, I believe in how it's sound can be excellent, stereo, and pleasant....and I KNOW from experience that some operators run their stations with pride, and some don't give a rat's behind.

 

[Juan]

Not correct on some of the above statement. .
1) Quality of streaming depends JUST LIKE OVER THE AIR on how much attention is paid to HOW the sound is delivered to the carrier. If a "raw" sound was sent from the control room, there would be no AGC (automatic gain control) for leveling the audio, nor any other processing that gives you what you "expect" from your loca station. In our case, at WION you DO hear exactly what is on the air, as we send our AM STEREO product from a tuner in my office into a sound card, encoded, and sent to Live 365, which then distributes it to others like Tune-In Radio.

2) Their "tuner" to which you refer is really NOT a tuner. No "app" you download can magically create a real tuner that uses the AM and FM airwaves directly. For a tuner to be "real" it has to have an antenna to match the frequencies you wish to tune and the circuitry to TUNE AM and FM. The only thing Tune-In does is perhaps LOOK like a tuner and let you set favorites. You are simply selecting a digitally streamed feed from a station that LOOKS like the old-fashioned way. It's just to appease looks. An AM tuner needs AM capability. No tablet, phone, or device you use tune-in on unless it's a combined WEB AND AM/FM DEVICE can do that. There would need to be physical circuits and selectors for that to happen.

2a) Tune-in builds on broadcasters' work by re-transmitting our streams and inserting THEIR commercials, quite a few at startup. Annoying to say the least, and...when a broadcaster chooses a certain plan, those commercals can come at ANY time in the listening stream, not when the station takes it's own natural breaks, losing you continuity of content, and losing the station listeners. Stations who opt to NOT have commercials inserted pay a higher rate for streaming than those who allow the "third party" spots. It's why we had a skill developed for Amazon that is for our station only, and why we opt for the "no inserting commercials" in our monthly package.

3) Finally and most importantly: Streaming costs stations MONEY. Streaming is NOT available everywhere and cannot subsitute for an over the air signal in many places in the USA. Here, in Michigan, along I-96, there are places between Lansing and Detroit where even Verizon's signal drops, and you cannot access digital information which is needed to assemble any stream. It is NO substitute, and should not be considered in the same league as an "over the air" signal. If this is used as a crutch for pulling AM from dashboards then, the damn companies that pull us OUT of their dash can start paying my music licensing and bandwidth fees to provide this "free" service to you, the listener. Period. It's a shifting of cost to even PROPOSE that streaming is a substitute for free radio in a car, and that cost gets shifted to your BROADCASTER.

Atleast on my toyota..it does...its like a gui for the car radio

 

[radio]

Atleast on my toyota..it does...its like a gui for the car radio

Almost all modern auto radios are software driven, but there IS a tuner (even if just a chip) if you are hearing real AM and real FM, requiring a terrestrial antenna and not using data. The GUI to which you refer could be either, but there IS a difference between terrestrial tuning and "simulated" tuning on demand thru the internet. My point was that NO software in a tablet, phone, or car can "tune" terrestrial radio without SOME kind of hardware. Even FORD had the hardware in place for AM, and simply disabled it via their software, then agreed to turn it back on with an "update." Tune-in only REbroadcasts via the web the stations that participate in their redistribution of others' streams, not in providing any real "local" tuning of a terrestrial signal.

 

[TRG]

2a) Tune-in builds on broadcasters' work by re-transmitting our streams and inserting THEIR commercials, quite a few at startup. Annoying to say the least, and...when a broadcaster chooses a certain plan, those commercials can come at ANY time in the listening stream, not when the station takes it's own natural breaks, losing you continuity of content, and losing the station listeners.

This is what caused me to stop using Tunein. It wasn't always this way. I'm thinking it was in the last couple of years where they started inserting extra commercials. I use Radio Garden now. Radio Garden

 

[Juan]

Almost all modern auto radios are software driven, but there IS a tuner (even if just a chip) if you are hearing real AM and real FM, requiring a terrestrial antenna and not using data. The GUI to which you refer could be either, but there IS a difference between terrestrial tuning and "simulated" tuning on demand thru the internet. My point was that NO software in a tablet, phone, or car can "tune" terrestrial radio without SOME kind of hardware. Even FORD had the hardware in place for AM, and simply disabled it via their software, then agreed to turn it back on with an "update." Tune-in only REbroadcasts via the web the stations that participate in their redistribution of others' streams, not in providing any real "local" tuning of a terrestrial signal.

It's got the shark antenna they now use for satellite and terrestrial..the old whip antenna is long gone...many android phones can pick up radio stations too

 

[telstar_1]

Then it's not an AM tuner. Unless it has like some kind of windshield antenna like the 70s GM cars.

Absolutely not. It is at it's highest and best use now for long-distance efficient communications. Think of how the hobby of "distant listening" works at night. Signals bounce where they may, while the primary coverage area of an AM is mainly unaffected. NO other use would be practical, so rest easy on that question.

So basically it's safe because other types of users wouldn't put up with its quirks and do the engineering to be able to use it well.

 

[Juan]

Then it's not an AM tuner. Unless it has like some kind of windshield antenna like the 70s GM cars.


So basically it's safe because other types of users wouldn't put up with its quirks and do the engineering to be able to use it well.

AM works...no idea where the AM antenna is then but the shark is a FM antenna for sure..the AM antenna us also built into the shark after a little research..the shark does gps, AM,FM and satellite

 

[harshness]

Quality of streaming depends JUST LIKE OVER THE AIR on how much attention is paid to HOW the sound is delivered to the carrier. If a "raw" sound was sent from the control room, there would be no AGC (automatic gain control) for leveling the audio, nor any other processing that gives you what you "expect" from your loca station.

Streaming doesn't require a whole lot of special hardware and it isn't expensive. What it does demand is discipline on the part of the person in control of the mics to not "firewall" the levels. That's not easy to do with old school talent now than many of them are in direct control of the mixer (no more "producers").

My favorite local station has a number of old school personalities that subscribe to "firewalling" and their stream (and occasionally the RF product) sound terrible when they're live. They have a nice stereo RF system but somehow at 8KW, you can only pick it up in a small area with the right kind of radio. In my case, I have to drive closer to the station since my car is my only AM stereo rig. For now, I'm stuck with calling in and sending them captures to show how they're killing their stream. No amount of presets and limiters seems to be able to overcome those who live to put those VU meters way into the red.

I would argue that too much craft has to be brought to bear to make AM broadcast something worth saving. The few can't save the many.

 

[dishdude]

Sounds like Cincinnati

WKRP?

 

[harshness]

Then it's not an AM tuner. Unless it has like some kind of windshield antenna like the 70s GM cars.

Embedded antennas are usually built into glass towards the rear of the vehicle these days. I think they found they were having too much trouble getting windshield antennas connected when the windshields were replaced.

 

[telstar_1]

Embedded antennas are usually built into glass towards the rear of the vehicle these days. I think they found they were having too much trouble getting windshield antennas connected when the windshields were replaced.

But are they effective? I had to think that the windscreen one in my '74 Nova was impaired both by directionality of the car and the Faraday effect of the body structure. And/or that the radio itself lacked in signals sensitivity.

Streaming doesn't require a whole lot of special hardware and it isn't expensive. What it does demand is discipline on the part of the person in control of the mics to not "firewall" the levels. That's not easy to do with old school talent now than many of them are in direct control of the mixer (no more "producers").

My favorite local station has a number of old school personalities that subscribe to "firewalling" and their stream (and occasionally the RF product) sound terrible when they're live. They have a nice stereo RF system but somehow at 8KW, you can only pick it up in a small area with the right kind of radio. In my case, I have to drive closer to the station since my car is my only AM stereo rig. For now, I'm stuck with calling in and sending them captures to show how they're killing their stream. No amount of presets and limiters seems to be able to overcome those who live to put those VU meters way into the red.

I would argue that too much craft has to be brought to bear to make AM broadcast something worth saving. The few can't save the many.

That pretty much hits it. For instance how much "craft" remains in studio analog audio recording? Once the mainstream moves on, institutional technical knowledge, skills and "giving a rat" wither away.

 

[harshness]

But are they effective?

The old dipoles were probably sub-par and the new folded dipoles aren't a lot better but the "need" isn't what it used to be.

 

[telstar_1]

The old dipoles were probably sub-par and the new folded dipoles aren't a lot better but the "need" isn't what it used to be.

You mean the "expectation".

 

[EarDemon]

It's got the shark antenna they now use for satellite and terrestrial..the old whip antenna is long gone...many android phones can pick up radio stations too

Long gone? My 2023 Bronco had a whip antenna for terrestrial reception.

 

[telstar_1]

Long gone? My 2023 Bronco had a whip antenna for terrestrial reception.

But then oddly it was Ford calling it quits on AM

 

[navychop]

Tesla already did it.

 

[Juan]

But are they effective? I had to think that the windscreen one in my '74 Nova was impaired both by directionality of the car and the Faraday effect of the body structure. And/or that the radio itself lacked in signals sensitivity.


That pretty much hits it. For instance how much "craft" remains in studio analog audio recording? Once the mainstream moves on, institutional technical knowledge, skills and "giving a rat" wither away.

AM kinda died a long time ago when music moved to FM...news,

Long gone? My 2023 Bronco had a whip antenna for terrestrial reception.

they still offer roll down windows too

 

[Jimbo]

It's got the shark antenna they now use for satellite and terrestrial..the old whip antenna is long gone...many android phones can pick up radio stations too

Have you looked at any TRUCKS lately ?
They ALL have the normal whip style antennas on them ...

The Shark fin on the truck are for the Sat signal and other things, but Not Am .... Not sure if the FM is on the mounted antenna or not, I'm gonna guess and say the AM and FM is and the newer stuff is in the Fin.

edit:
Why does the F-150 still have an antenna?


In talking to Mike Levine, Ford's Product Communications Manager, he summed up why Ford still uses the old whips like this: The mast antenna supports the AM/FM performance best over other design options

 

[Jimbo]

AM kinda died a long time ago when music moved to FM...news,

they still offer roll down windows too

Maybe, If you Order it that way.

I'm pretty sure All Ford Pick ups still have a whip antenna ... can't say for other manufactures, but I would think they do to ... Now I'll have to look when I see them on the road.