First Look: Dish Network's DTVPal Digital Converter
- Thread starter Scott Greczkowski
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"We compared it head-to-head with the Zenith DTT900 using the composite video input,
and we found the DTVPal to be a tad softer, with more jaggies and other image imperfections.
It was nearly as bad as the GE 22730, and more comparable to the image quality of the RCA DTA800."
From CNET review.
Glad I used all my coupons for LG tuner.
and we found the DTVPal to be a tad softer, with more jaggies and other image imperfections.
It was nearly as bad as the GE 22730, and more comparable to the image quality of the RCA DTA800."
From CNET review.
Glad I used all my coupons for LG tuner.
I wonder if the DTVpal's logo is an attempt to goad Tivo into another law suit? 
Sadly, I don't think this will be available in time for my one coupon which expires in another week. Maybe my local Radio Shack (which sells DishNetwork) will have them in-stock...
Sadly, I don't think this will be available in time for my one coupon which expires in another week. Maybe my local Radio Shack (which sells DishNetwork) will have them in-stock...
I also think this does convert digital TVGOS signals to analog, in Scott's screenshots enabling the guide+ feature disables Timers, parental locks and inactivity timeout. I also agree that the DTVpal itself uses PSIP and think it only relays TVGOS.
Analog TV Guide devices search for the guide data at specific intervals. It makes sense those features are disabled because the DTVpal will need to be tuned to a specific channel all the time when "off" to translate the TVGOS data into analog form.
In the video review the guy turned the Guide+ feature on and he could no longer access the dtvpal guide. When he hit guide the box asked to disable the Guide+ feature and reboot.
I have two different Guide+ compatible TV sets but I think the DTVPal has a nicer guide for the most part.
Regardless of the TVGOS stuff this looks like a really nice product and is worth $59 IMHO. Heck, Dish should license this GUI to TV manufacturers to replace the bare-bones features usually included.
Analog TV Guide devices search for the guide data at specific intervals. It makes sense those features are disabled because the DTVpal will need to be tuned to a specific channel all the time when "off" to translate the TVGOS data into analog form.
In the video review the guy turned the Guide+ feature on and he could no longer access the dtvpal guide. When he hit guide the box asked to disable the Guide+ feature and reboot.
I have two different Guide+ compatible TV sets but I think the DTVPal has a nicer guide for the most part.
Regardless of the TVGOS stuff this looks like a really nice product and is worth $59 IMHO. Heck, Dish should license this GUI to TV manufacturers to replace the bare-bones features usually included.
Wouldn't the MPEG-2 decoder have to support DVS-706 in order to properly pass TVGOS VBI? If so, perhaps someone can crack open a DTV Pal and checkout the video chipset. Also, isn't DVS-706 a relatively new standard not widely implemented? Perhaps someone with a Sony DHG-HDD250/500 can hook it to a DTV Pal and give it a try...
left out most important part
Here is the end of the Cnet review, with the omitted section highlighted:
Here is the end of the Cnet review, with the omitted section highlighted:
I about had a melt-down, 'till I read the whole story.Cnet Review said:
DTVPal MUST provide analog TVGOS
I agree with those posters that are saying the DTVPal DOES do what you analog TVGOS users have wanted.
If you read the DTVPal manual pages posted by Scott at the end of the very first post in this thread, I think you can tell that the DTVPal DOES, in fact, convert digital TVGOS to analog TVGOS. Or, if not that, it must at least convert collected PSIP data to analog TVGOS, although that seems like it would actually be MORE difficult and LESS likely than converting digital TVGOS data to analog TVGOS.
Look at page 25, under Set Up Your DTVPal:
Note that on the "Guide-enabled device," you set up the DTVPal as if it were an analog cable box. So, just as cable box users used to get TVGOS data from a local analog broadcast station through the analog output of the cable box, you now will be getting the TVGOS data from the analog output of the DTVPal.
Note: The Guide device CANNOT be getting its data from a broadcast analog TVGOS that is "passing through" the DTVPal; note that at the bottom of page 23 it says you can connect your DTVPal to the "Guide device" through the TV Set Out (RF) *OR* Audio/Video (composite), just as you could hook up an analog cable box either way. There is NO WAY "analog pass through" could provide any TVGOS data via if the DTVPal (or a cable box) is hooked up only via the composite cables, yet we are told this hookup will work. The DTVPal must provide analog TVGOS data through both its RF and composite outputs, since it can be connected to the Guide device either way.
But is this PSIP data that's converted to analog TVGOS, or is it digital TVGOS converted to analog TVGOS?
Look at page 26, under Completing Setup:
Quote: "To begin receiving listings, be sure to turn off the Guide-enabled device when not in use. . . Within 24 hours you will begin receiving TV show listings. It may take up to six days to receive the *full eight days* of initial show listings. . . Show listings are *updated several times per day*."
Now, I think that sounds like the DTVPal must be converting digital TVGOS data, but if not, it must at least be converting PSIP data to analog TVGOS.
Continuing. . . "Be sure to leave your DTVPal powered on to have the most updated listings information."
This reaffirms that the TVGOS data is coming FROM THE DTVPal, or it would not have to stay powered on.
Continuing. . . "It is normal for the DTVPal to change channels while the Guide-enabled device is powered off and is setting up or receiving data."
Now, that may sound like the DTVPal is scanning through channels to collect PSIP data, but remember, this setup is supposed to work like a cable box would. More likely, the Guide device is changing the channels on the DTVPal (via G-link cable) to find the channel that carries the TVGOS data. I think that when the Guide device tunes the DTVPal to the digital PBS or CBS station that carries the digital TVGOS data, it is converted to analog at the same time as the rest of the signal and passed to the Guide device.
Or, I suppose the DTVPal tuner chip could somehow be tuning in NTSC (analog) ONLY for the purpose of getting TVGOS data (Coupon converter boxes are forbidden to tune and display analog stations, but tuning to an analog station to collect data only might be something they could get away with), and if that's the case, the data would be collected in analog and be passed to the Guide device still in analog, and would quit working if the analog station shuts down at "digital transition" time. That approach seems extremely unlikely, however.
I think the DTVPal MUST be getting that TVGOS data (which it sends out through its analog outputs) from the ATSC (digital) stations that it is meant to tune, and therefore it should be able to keep an analog TVGOS device working well after the digital transition.
And remember, with this kind of hookup, you won't be looking at the DTVPal menus or guides much, if at all. And you won't be using the DTVPal's remote control much. Instead, you'll be looking at the Guide device's Guide and changing channels, etc., using the Guide device's remote control. And if your Guide device is a recording device, it will change the DTVPal channel for you when it records, as you'd expect.
Now, you may ask, if the DTVPal can collect, or at least convert, the digital TVGOS data, why doesn't it display it in its OWN guide (instead of the PSIP data), for people that are using the DTVPal with a regular "non-Guide" TV? Why does it ONLY provide TVGOS data for people who have "Guide devices"? I think this is where the licensing fees become an issue. People who have "Guide devices" are "entitled" to seeing this TVGOS data displayed, while people who have only the DTVPal alone are "not entitled."
It can't be too long before someone with a "Guide device" gets their hands on a DTVPal and tests this stuff.
I agree with those posters that are saying the DTVPal DOES do what you analog TVGOS users have wanted.
If you read the DTVPal manual pages posted by Scott at the end of the very first post in this thread, I think you can tell that the DTVPal DOES, in fact, convert digital TVGOS to analog TVGOS. Or, if not that, it must at least convert collected PSIP data to analog TVGOS, although that seems like it would actually be MORE difficult and LESS likely than converting digital TVGOS data to analog TVGOS.
Look at page 25, under Set Up Your DTVPal:
Note that on the "Guide-enabled device," you set up the DTVPal as if it were an analog cable box. So, just as cable box users used to get TVGOS data from a local analog broadcast station through the analog output of the cable box, you now will be getting the TVGOS data from the analog output of the DTVPal.
Note: The Guide device CANNOT be getting its data from a broadcast analog TVGOS that is "passing through" the DTVPal; note that at the bottom of page 23 it says you can connect your DTVPal to the "Guide device" through the TV Set Out (RF) *OR* Audio/Video (composite), just as you could hook up an analog cable box either way. There is NO WAY "analog pass through" could provide any TVGOS data via if the DTVPal (or a cable box) is hooked up only via the composite cables, yet we are told this hookup will work. The DTVPal must provide analog TVGOS data through both its RF and composite outputs, since it can be connected to the Guide device either way.
But is this PSIP data that's converted to analog TVGOS, or is it digital TVGOS converted to analog TVGOS?
Look at page 26, under Completing Setup:
Quote: "To begin receiving listings, be sure to turn off the Guide-enabled device when not in use. . . Within 24 hours you will begin receiving TV show listings. It may take up to six days to receive the *full eight days* of initial show listings. . . Show listings are *updated several times per day*."
Now, I think that sounds like the DTVPal must be converting digital TVGOS data, but if not, it must at least be converting PSIP data to analog TVGOS.
Continuing. . . "Be sure to leave your DTVPal powered on to have the most updated listings information."
This reaffirms that the TVGOS data is coming FROM THE DTVPal, or it would not have to stay powered on.
Continuing. . . "It is normal for the DTVPal to change channels while the Guide-enabled device is powered off and is setting up or receiving data."
Now, that may sound like the DTVPal is scanning through channels to collect PSIP data, but remember, this setup is supposed to work like a cable box would. More likely, the Guide device is changing the channels on the DTVPal (via G-link cable) to find the channel that carries the TVGOS data. I think that when the Guide device tunes the DTVPal to the digital PBS or CBS station that carries the digital TVGOS data, it is converted to analog at the same time as the rest of the signal and passed to the Guide device.
Or, I suppose the DTVPal tuner chip could somehow be tuning in NTSC (analog) ONLY for the purpose of getting TVGOS data (Coupon converter boxes are forbidden to tune and display analog stations, but tuning to an analog station to collect data only might be something they could get away with), and if that's the case, the data would be collected in analog and be passed to the Guide device still in analog, and would quit working if the analog station shuts down at "digital transition" time. That approach seems extremely unlikely, however.
I think the DTVPal MUST be getting that TVGOS data (which it sends out through its analog outputs) from the ATSC (digital) stations that it is meant to tune, and therefore it should be able to keep an analog TVGOS device working well after the digital transition.
And remember, with this kind of hookup, you won't be looking at the DTVPal menus or guides much, if at all. And you won't be using the DTVPal's remote control much. Instead, you'll be looking at the Guide device's Guide and changing channels, etc., using the Guide device's remote control. And if your Guide device is a recording device, it will change the DTVPal channel for you when it records, as you'd expect.
Now, you may ask, if the DTVPal can collect, or at least convert, the digital TVGOS data, why doesn't it display it in its OWN guide (instead of the PSIP data), for people that are using the DTVPal with a regular "non-Guide" TV? Why does it ONLY provide TVGOS data for people who have "Guide devices"? I think this is where the licensing fees become an issue. People who have "Guide devices" are "entitled" to seeing this TVGOS data displayed, while people who have only the DTVPal alone are "not entitled."
It can't be too long before someone with a "Guide device" gets their hands on a DTVPal and tests this stuff.
Guy, thanks for the update! It makes sense that the DTV Pal would support digital-to-analog TVGOS...especially in light of the statement on Page 26, "To begin receiving listings, be sure to turn off the Guide-enabled device when not in use. . . Within 24 hours you will begin receiving TV show listings. It may take up to six days to receive the *full eight days* of initial show listings. . . Show listings are *updated several times per day*." This is exactly how TVGOS works (both the analog and digital versions) so it would tend to rule out the DTV Pal providing only PSIP to analog TVGOS conversion.
However, it is still possible that the only guide information being provided to the TVGOS device are for the local over-the-air digital channels. Note the "Substitute ZIP Codes" which are listed on page 28 of the User's Guide. This implementation doesn't make a lot of sense since the DTV Pal will still be providing a conversion process of the PSIP datastream, and the GemStar TVGOS folks would have to support the Substitute Zipcodes. Why not just implement DVS-706 conversion and be done with it?
Likewise, I will agree that it would be unlikely for the DTV Pal to pass through analog VBI (TVGOS data) since that feature would no longer function come Feb 2009.
Again...great analysis of the information, but to avoid all possible confusion I asked Dish Network product engineers to answer the following question, "Does the DTV Pal convert digital TVGOS to analog (VBI) TVGOS and does it support DVI-706?" The only reply was from Scott who stated, "Jim to answer your question ... NO IT DOES NOT." While Scott is not a E* product engineer, he has a pretty good list of contacts and I have never seen him bold his font unless he was sure of the answer....and I have been hanging out here for more than 4 years.
I guess until someone proves the DTV Pal can perform digital-to-analog TVGOS conversion, then I will accept Scott's answer. Perhaps Scott can clarify the specifics of how TVGOS is implemented on the DTV Pal. In other words, based on the information on page #26, what kind of guide information is being passed to the analog TVGOS device and what is the role of the "Substitute Zipcode"?
My hunch is the DTV Pal is providing a PSIP to analog TVGOS conversion for the local digital channels, and the substitute zipcode supports how the information is being presented from the DTV Pal (i.e. channel mapping, etc.). This would actually work if my Sony HD DVR were still OTA only...but it wouldn't work to well now that I have FiOS TV and Cablecard.
We Sony HD DVR folks are a vocal/techie group, but our numbers are certainly quite small overall. Additionally, as I previously mentioned there are only a dozen or so CBS O&Os currently broadcasting digital TVGOS. I would love to test the DTV Pal and see if it actually supports digital-to-analog TVGOS since I have a CBS O&O in my area. Howver, I am not a beta tester and E* doesn't like me since am a DishHD-Lite critic.
However, it is still possible that the only guide information being provided to the TVGOS device are for the local over-the-air digital channels. Note the "Substitute ZIP Codes" which are listed on page 28 of the User's Guide. This implementation doesn't make a lot of sense since the DTV Pal will still be providing a conversion process of the PSIP datastream, and the GemStar TVGOS folks would have to support the Substitute Zipcodes. Why not just implement DVS-706 conversion and be done with it?
Likewise, I will agree that it would be unlikely for the DTV Pal to pass through analog VBI (TVGOS data) since that feature would no longer function come Feb 2009.
Again...great analysis of the information, but to avoid all possible confusion I asked Dish Network product engineers to answer the following question, "Does the DTV Pal convert digital TVGOS to analog (VBI) TVGOS and does it support DVI-706?" The only reply was from Scott who stated, "Jim to answer your question ... NO IT DOES NOT." While Scott is not a E* product engineer, he has a pretty good list of contacts and I have never seen him bold his font unless he was sure of the answer....and I have been hanging out here for more than 4 years.
I guess until someone proves the DTV Pal can perform digital-to-analog TVGOS conversion, then I will accept Scott's answer. Perhaps Scott can clarify the specifics of how TVGOS is implemented on the DTV Pal. In other words, based on the information on page #26, what kind of guide information is being passed to the analog TVGOS device and what is the role of the "Substitute Zipcode"?
My hunch is the DTV Pal is providing a PSIP to analog TVGOS conversion for the local digital channels, and the substitute zipcode supports how the information is being presented from the DTV Pal (i.e. channel mapping, etc.). This would actually work if my Sony HD DVR were still OTA only...but it wouldn't work to well now that I have FiOS TV and Cablecard.
We Sony HD DVR folks are a vocal/techie group, but our numbers are certainly quite small overall. Additionally, as I previously mentioned there are only a dozen or so CBS O&Os currently broadcasting digital TVGOS. I would love to test the DTV Pal and see if it actually supports digital-to-analog TVGOS since I have a CBS O&O in my area. Howver, I am not a beta tester and E* doesn't like me since am a DishHD-Lite critic.
I've been holding out for one of these to simplify taping on our DVD recorder, so the review is very encouraging.
I think I have an idea why some channels would come in better on the DTVPal and others on the Zenith at Scott's location. The three channels he reported as better on the DTVPal are transmitting on channels 10, 11, and 12, while the ones that worked better on the Zenith were UHF stations. It may be that the DTVPal's tuner is more sensitive on high-VHF channels.
I have an Accurian HDTV tuner and a Zenith CECB. Obviously the Zenith is a newer receiver design, and it does handle my UHF stations better, which have some multipath. But, with dead on antenna aiming the Accurian is a tad bit more sensitive at VHF frquencies (I have a strong 2, weak 12, and very weak 8 with co-channel interference).
I think I have an idea why some channels would come in better on the DTVPal and others on the Zenith at Scott's location. The three channels he reported as better on the DTVPal are transmitting on channels 10, 11, and 12, while the ones that worked better on the Zenith were UHF stations. It may be that the DTVPal's tuner is more sensitive on high-VHF channels.
I have an Accurian HDTV tuner and a Zenith CECB. Obviously the Zenith is a newer receiver design, and it does handle my UHF stations better, which have some multipath. But, with dead on antenna aiming the Accurian is a tad bit more sensitive at VHF frquencies (I have a strong 2, weak 12, and very weak 8 with co-channel interference).
Yes, I agree the "substitute zip code" you must enter into the "Guide device" must play a role in limiting the Guide listings to OTA channels, whether the analog TVGOS data is generated from PSIP or converted from digital TVGOS. It's too bad the list of zip codes on page 28 wasn't included in the pdf. It's probably just a page full of numbers, but it would have been another clue for me. (I thought the vast majority of possible zip codes were in use. How many "substitute" ones could they come up with?)
Channel mapping is another interesting issue, probably also tied in somehow to the zip code thing. Some or all "Guide devices" probably can't send a channel number like "17.2" or "17.5" ("17-2" or "17-5" on some brands) to the DTVPal over the G-link, so it must re-map subchannels with alternate channel numbers that don't have the dot/dash in them (I assume)? The Guide device is treating the DTVPal as if it is a Scientific Atlanta analog cable box, and so the Guide device can probably only send channel numbers that SA cable boxes would understand.
(Interestingly, the DTVPal remote doesn't have a dot or dash key either. It has * and # on either side of the 0, like a phone keypad. I assume one or both of these can be used as the dot/dash for people using the DTVPal as "normal" converter box.)
I happen to live in an area with digital TVGOS transmitted by WCCO (CBS O&O), but I don't have a "Guide device," neither analog nor digital. I was just intrigued by the puzzle of what the DTVPal is actually doing to keep the Guide devices working.
By the way, I have a preorder in place for 2 DTVPals at an online store that I guess I can't mention here, and I'm still watching for an email that was supposed to be sent sometime today to everyone who preordered. It should explain the impact of recent pricing announcements, so I'll know soon if my preorder still stands. I'm hoping no news (yet) is good news; the guy running the store seems to be the type that will do everything he can to honor the preorders if possible, but he's said that selling them at a loss is NOT something he can afford to do. (He is not redeeming coupons until he can ship the product, unlike some fly-by-night stores that really screwed up by redeeming the non-refundable, non-re-issuable coupons on vaporware. My coupons expire July 2, so I may still have a shot at using them even if my preorder falls through during the next few days.)
I don't think there's any harm in mentioning provantage as they more than likely are NOT, and WILL NOT be, selling these converter boxes after all.
Provantage
Yeah, Provantage is one of the companies that really screwed up. I believe they lost their NTIA approval and can't sell ANY converter boxes anymore, not only the DTVPal. At least, they can't accept coupons anymore. They can probably sell boxes at full price.
The company where I placed my preorder is specializing in OTA DTV equipment, including coupon converter boxes, and has been trying very hard to follow all the rules from the beginning. The owner has posted info about the rules he has to follow over at avsforum.com, which I hope is ok to mention by name. They sold out all the DTVPals they had available for preorder, but they do have several other coupon-eligible models still available for sale. He had an agreement in place to get the DTVPal through official Sling Media distribution channels, and that is what may have gone sour due to the last-minute price change and the "now there are two different boxes" switcheroo.
I believe I read earlier that I can't mention the store by name because it is not a sponsor of this site.
Yeah, Provantage is one of the companies that really screwed up. I believe they lost their NTIA approval and can't sell ANY converter boxes anymore, not only the DTVPal. At least, they can't accept coupons anymore. They can probably sell boxes at full price.
The company where I placed my preorder is specializing in OTA DTV equipment, including coupon converter boxes, and has been trying very hard to follow all the rules from the beginning. The owner has posted info about the rules he has to follow over at avsforum.com, which I hope is ok to mention by name. They sold out all the DTVPals they had available for preorder, but they do have several other coupon-eligible models still available for sale. He had an agreement in place to get the DTVPal through official Sling Media distribution channels, and that is what may have gone sour due to the last-minute price change and the "now there are two different boxes" switcheroo.
I believe I read earlier that I can't mention the store by name because it is not a sponsor of this site.
Where can I purchase one of these Dish digital converters for $59.00? In PUerto Rico stores cannot keep up with demand ..They are selling like hotcakes ...please somebody tell me where I can buy this item on the web !! Send me A private IM .....THANKS in ADVANCE ,
The retailer I'm working with will have them available by the end of the moth or on the beginning of July,I'll let you know when arrives.
BTW I like your avatar.
Like that Michael P.R. 51 state
I brought mine in WalMart in Bayamon they had two pallets of TV converter on Monday!
I've been cleared to give away my DTVPal. If you want it prior to release, enter here:
The DTVPal Giveaway
The DTVPal Giveaway
Oh, Miguel, you just don't get how things work here. Maybe if we lived in some godforsaken communist country people could just post store names willy nilly to an internet forum in some misguided concept of free and open communication. But we live in the good old US of A where capitalism rules and fascist site administrators censor posts that mention companies that aren't sponsoring their site.
How ever will PR become a state if you people are still holding on to quaint concepts like freedom of speech?
