Hmm, wonder if this will hurt Dish from getting approval for their LTE network and future permissions that they want granted.
ECHOSTAR is Suing the FCC
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I doubt it. Lawsuits are necessary to demonstrate intent and preserve one's position, a form of communication if you will. I'm not sure exactly what they want. Can't they just design them to work with cablecards like the Silicon Dust and Ceton products.
no .not at all as I understand this they want to make boxes that will not use a standard cable card the want the info to decode the cable encryption that's wrong in my opinion. if they want to manufacture a box that uses a cable card they can.
would dish want to supply the same info to tivio?
I didn't read through all of this with my vast lack of lawyer skills. But, this is the problem with our economy. We will outsource all accounts of competition. But when it comes to communications, companies try to have complete control. The phone I'm using right now would be a bitch to switch to another provider. I can't just buy a STB. No, I have to rent it from the company. My friend has a Chevy Truck and can't change a part of his engine, because Chevy trade marked the parts design and made it so that the consumer had to go through them. We only get choice with milk brands and toys for our kids. The big tag items always gets to screw us into paying more.
That would be awesome if they allowed us to use our own hardware. I imagine they would say that they would not support it or make things extremely difficult.
Sure they can. They can start denying Echostar's and Dish's applications. The FCC can do anything they want.. That's as far as I'm going to go otherwise we get into an area that only belongs on Sonic Babble.
Actually, I'll take a stab at what this suit is about, and it is a OLD battle. Essentially, Dish does NOT want to be compelled to implement further encryption or conditions (such as CCI flags that are part of the Plug and Play Agreement) that would prevent customers from recording or having limits on recorded programming using any set-top-box Echostar manufactures for DBS companies beyond the already implemented system for VOD content USING A STANDARD FOR ENCODING FROM WHICH ECHOSTAR WAS EXCLUDED FROM PARTICIPATING IN ITS TECHNICAL DEVELOPMENT.
Both DBS companies (Dish & DirecTV) were upset that while they had the opportunity to submit comments or objections during the public comment period, neither DBS provider was present during the months long meetings among Cable Cos., CES companies (back in the 2002 era), and others when the TECHNICAL STANDARDS for encoding video and audio would best facilitate copyright restrictions for ALL programming from ALL MVPD's. In other words, DBS didn't trust the Cable Co's standard that could put DBS at a technical disadvantage for the new standard. Cable was pushing for the FCC to adopt "their" standard for ALL MVPD's, including DBS. DBS fought to be exempt from such a requirement because they never were permitted to take part in the technical drafting of the standard. While the FCC, after a good long while, finally, decided NOT to compel DBS to meet the standard for ALL programming, it did require DBS to meet the standard for "Video on Demand" type programming. This requirement also relates to shutting off certain outputs on STB's (so as to NOT allow recording of the content at home to any external device) such as the component outputs (which has already been cleared by the FCC for those and other analog outputs to be shut off for a "demo" or "test run" that already occurred last year of a few hot Hollywood movies on VOD One was a Disney movie, I believe. A dark day).
MY OTHER GUESS:
The only reason I can think of that Echostar is still fighting this is, besides a standard they may not feel works best with its technology because they had no part in developing it, is because they don't want the Verizon FiOS experience of content flags, or Copy Control Information (CCI) that have now expanded to all the cable channel tiers beyond PPV and how it is really irritating people who record their content, even on approved devices such as leased DVR's and 3rd party DVR's such as TiVo. The TiVo forum is just bristling with posts from people who are so ANGRY about being restricted to ONE view or a recording NOT being allowed to transfer to the other (or only ONE transfer, and this would relate to Dish external HDD archiving system: transfer it once--OR NOT AT ALL--and watch it once, and then kiss it Buh-bye) TiVo in the other room or one of the other flag restrictions. There are also many instances of errors in the flag NOT allowing something that it is SUPPOSED to allow such as a copy once, but it won't allow any copies, etc. There seems to be less and less content the TiVo folks can record on Verizon FiOS (and growing number of cable franchises) that doesn't have restrictions (I don't regularly visit any Verizon Fios STB forums, but there is one I know of and I think I saw some some ticked-off comments there, as well. It's just that TiVo has a more tech savvy base and more features that allow for "approved" movement and copying of content that is also being prevented by some of the CCI) that VIOLATE their exceptions and habits of viewing and recording programming, the FCC's own stated standard.
Remember the MVPD's don't give a rat's behind about content copyright protection because it tends to tick-off their customers. MVPD's DON'T want customer mad at them because they can't bump Lady Ga Ga's HBO conert to DVD or whatever for making a copy for THEIR OWN PERSONAL PRIVATE USE as supposedly protected under the law, even under DMCA. All MVPD's have really resisted this because they want happy customers who can still use their VCR's and DVD recorders or NOT be encumbered by CCI like technology. The cable industry was FORCED to develop this standard because the studios told them that if they didn't get a standard soon, the studios were going to work with their DBS competitors to develop one and the studios would not provide their content (mostly Hollywood movies) to the cable companies. Remember, DBS was almost NOTHING compared to the cable co.'s back in 2001-2002. Much of DBS growth occurred after that period. I'm certain Hollywood expected--or had the fix in for--the FCC to require DBS to implement the cable TV standard, as well, because once the standard was agreed to, the FCC said it intended to do just that. Hence, two birds with one stone.
Cable Co's. have also had to implement the CCI, as well, by the content owners, et al. So, cable is not going to fare much better than Verizon FiOS in the long run. Right now, DBS is exempt, except for VOD type programming (that doesn't prevent HBO or others from REQUIRING Dish or DirecTV to implement something for CCI like technology as part of their requirements at contract renewal for agreements to retransmit HBO, et al. to their customers using whatever encoding method each MVPD wants to use. It's just that the FCC believes that an industry STANDARD is the best way to foster participation of 3rd parties to offer STB's that meet the COPYRIGHT requirement over all MVPD's systems.) The cable Co'. and the FCC feel it is important to require ALL MVPD's (the remaining DBS companies) to comply with the standard in order to prevent any MVPD from having an "unfair" advantage, and that is why the FCC wants this to be the standard and for ALL the providers to implement it. It makes the goal of the AllVid standard just a bit more difficult if the copyright technology is NOT standardized, from the FCC's point of view. Again, Echostar, says that it is not correct to force them to comply (we presume Echostar is NOT using the Cable Co. standard, but its own encoding method, to meet required VOD and HBO copyright protections and limitations) when the cable co's. excluded both Echostar and DirecTV from participating in its creation and that public comments is NOT a sufficient substitute for directly contributing to a standard that may, in fact, put DBS at the technical and market place disadvantage. This, however, is NOT limited to just the CCI implementation but other copyright control functions.
I aint no lawyer, but that is what I what I get from it. This is really an OLD battle that goes back over 10 years. DirecTV was also P.O.'d about it as well, and they stood with Dish on this issue back then. I don't think DirecTV is in favor of being forced to comply, either, but I don't know what their full position is on the matter TODAY, just that Echostar seems to be taking a different legal path (logic or argument) than DirecTV, but both don't like this.
THIS SPECIFIC ISSUE is NOT about forcing MVPD's to adopt a broad general tech spec to facilitate 3rd party STB's in general, although this is ONE component of that goal, being AllVid, just that if there is a STANDARD for encoding RELATING TO ENCRYPTION OR CCI or other like COPYRIGHT PROTECTION, it could create an environment where 3rd parties could design an STB that would be in compliance with COPYRIGHT PROTECTION technology on any MVPD because it would be standardized. The movie studios want this as much as the FCC. Or the FCC wants this because the movie studios want this. However, this has NOTHING directly to do with meeting any of the other unique technical standards of DirecTV or Dish or Cable or IPTV (Uverse), or FiOS. This is JUST AN ENCODING STANDARD FOR IMPLEMENTATION FOR CCI LIKE COPYRIGHT PROTECTION OR ENCRYPTION. However, the FCC pushing for its adoption NOW can only be seen as part of its other, recently strong, push for AllVid as the answer to provide consumer choice for STB's beyond the MVPD itself to include 3rd parties, such as TiVo, or other CES companies interested in making such devices.
For me, the only problem with this vision is that the MVPD's will still continue to offer their STB's FREE or at a huge discount as they do today. How many people are really going to shell out the full retail price of hundreds of $$ for just ONE STB, and it may lack features the MVPD boxes have. Is the FCC to mandate that the MVPD's sell their in-house boxes at full retail so that 3rd parties are not at an unfair disadvantage? I think TiVo has been the loudest voice, although several CE companies and even retailer Best Buy support 3rd party participation and AllVid. Just look at the new DirecTiVo. What a neutered old tech box it is that costs more per month and in upfront cost than DirecTV's own product, and the TiVo lacks features such as Whole Home DVR that DirecTV DVR's have and DirecTiVo can't even offer strong features of its RETAIL TiVo product for all the extra expense and old Series 3 platform guts, looks and performance. And how many TiVo subscribers are left in the US? So few subscribers interested in 3rd party DVR's that Moxie no longer sells theirs at retail and will cease support from them in a little over a year. A lot of people spent between $700 - $1000 or more for soon to be bricks. The Sezmi DVR, a very competitive product for OTA recording, died last year and became pretty much a boat anchor on the final day of support with, what, about one month or two notice? And, ironically, innovation has NOT come from TiVo of late, but from the MVPD's themselves: true whole home DVR products, Xfinity, Dish's Prime Time Anytime feature and BEST and fastest UI of them all on 922 and Hopper products, along with the OTT box makers (OUTSIDE the MVPD arena) like Roku and the versatile Boxee Box. This is one area the FCC should just BUTT-OUTT and let the market take care of things. Cable and Sat are as affordable as they are today (no upfront cost) precisely because people DON't choose a 3rd party STB. 3rd party STB's are for the RICH, like all those TiVo owners who subscribe to cable or FiOS. Their cost is incredible, not to mention all the "Lifetime" subscribers who have paid $500 (most have more than one TiVo with such costs) in addition to buying the box at retail. We don't need more 3rd party boxes, we need MORE MVPD's, and I'm glad to see Apple and Google (they seem to have put it on hold for now) and one of the CE TV manufactures (Samsung?), I can't recall which, even Echostar/Dish try and develop NEW LESS expensive MVPD services via the internet along with the Verizon and Redbox collaboration being good competition for Netflix and Blockbuster and Amazon, as well. None of these developments has a thing to do with 3rd party STB's. Futhermore, AllVid as currently proposed has technical limitations that could diminish what consumers can now receive from some MVPD's such as a technical limitation of SIX "steams" or "tuners" coming into the home. Those of us with more than 6 Dish sat tuners (well, I used to have more than 6 up until a few months ago) would view AllVid as a huge step backward.
Any lawyers, please feel free to correct. I only posted this because it seemed nobody really understood it, least of all me
.
Both DBS companies (Dish & DirecTV) were upset that while they had the opportunity to submit comments or objections during the public comment period, neither DBS provider was present during the months long meetings among Cable Cos., CES companies (back in the 2002 era), and others when the TECHNICAL STANDARDS for encoding video and audio would best facilitate copyright restrictions for ALL programming from ALL MVPD's. In other words, DBS didn't trust the Cable Co's standard that could put DBS at a technical disadvantage for the new standard. Cable was pushing for the FCC to adopt "their" standard for ALL MVPD's, including DBS. DBS fought to be exempt from such a requirement because they never were permitted to take part in the technical drafting of the standard. While the FCC, after a good long while, finally, decided NOT to compel DBS to meet the standard for ALL programming, it did require DBS to meet the standard for "Video on Demand" type programming. This requirement also relates to shutting off certain outputs on STB's (so as to NOT allow recording of the content at home to any external device) such as the component outputs (which has already been cleared by the FCC for those and other analog outputs to be shut off for a "demo" or "test run" that already occurred last year of a few hot Hollywood movies on VOD One was a Disney movie, I believe. A dark day).
MY OTHER GUESS:
The only reason I can think of that Echostar is still fighting this is, besides a standard they may not feel works best with its technology because they had no part in developing it, is because they don't want the Verizon FiOS experience of content flags, or Copy Control Information (CCI) that have now expanded to all the cable channel tiers beyond PPV and how it is really irritating people who record their content, even on approved devices such as leased DVR's and 3rd party DVR's such as TiVo. The TiVo forum is just bristling with posts from people who are so ANGRY about being restricted to ONE view or a recording NOT being allowed to transfer to the other (or only ONE transfer, and this would relate to Dish external HDD archiving system: transfer it once--OR NOT AT ALL--and watch it once, and then kiss it Buh-bye) TiVo in the other room or one of the other flag restrictions. There are also many instances of errors in the flag NOT allowing something that it is SUPPOSED to allow such as a copy once, but it won't allow any copies, etc. There seems to be less and less content the TiVo folks can record on Verizon FiOS (and growing number of cable franchises) that doesn't have restrictions (I don't regularly visit any Verizon Fios STB forums, but there is one I know of and I think I saw some some ticked-off comments there, as well. It's just that TiVo has a more tech savvy base and more features that allow for "approved" movement and copying of content that is also being prevented by some of the CCI) that VIOLATE their exceptions and habits of viewing and recording programming, the FCC's own stated standard.
Remember the MVPD's don't give a rat's behind about content copyright protection because it tends to tick-off their customers. MVPD's DON'T want customer mad at them because they can't bump Lady Ga Ga's HBO conert to DVD or whatever for making a copy for THEIR OWN PERSONAL PRIVATE USE as supposedly protected under the law, even under DMCA. All MVPD's have really resisted this because they want happy customers who can still use their VCR's and DVD recorders or NOT be encumbered by CCI like technology. The cable industry was FORCED to develop this standard because the studios told them that if they didn't get a standard soon, the studios were going to work with their DBS competitors to develop one and the studios would not provide their content (mostly Hollywood movies) to the cable companies. Remember, DBS was almost NOTHING compared to the cable co.'s back in 2001-2002. Much of DBS growth occurred after that period. I'm certain Hollywood expected--or had the fix in for--the FCC to require DBS to implement the cable TV standard, as well, because once the standard was agreed to, the FCC said it intended to do just that. Hence, two birds with one stone.
Cable Co's. have also had to implement the CCI, as well, by the content owners, et al. So, cable is not going to fare much better than Verizon FiOS in the long run. Right now, DBS is exempt, except for VOD type programming (that doesn't prevent HBO or others from REQUIRING Dish or DirecTV to implement something for CCI like technology as part of their requirements at contract renewal for agreements to retransmit HBO, et al. to their customers using whatever encoding method each MVPD wants to use. It's just that the FCC believes that an industry STANDARD is the best way to foster participation of 3rd parties to offer STB's that meet the COPYRIGHT requirement over all MVPD's systems.) The cable Co'. and the FCC feel it is important to require ALL MVPD's (the remaining DBS companies) to comply with the standard in order to prevent any MVPD from having an "unfair" advantage, and that is why the FCC wants this to be the standard and for ALL the providers to implement it. It makes the goal of the AllVid standard just a bit more difficult if the copyright technology is NOT standardized, from the FCC's point of view. Again, Echostar, says that it is not correct to force them to comply (we presume Echostar is NOT using the Cable Co. standard, but its own encoding method, to meet required VOD and HBO copyright protections and limitations) when the cable co's. excluded both Echostar and DirecTV from participating in its creation and that public comments is NOT a sufficient substitute for directly contributing to a standard that may, in fact, put DBS at the technical and market place disadvantage. This, however, is NOT limited to just the CCI implementation but other copyright control functions.
I aint no lawyer, but that is what I what I get from it. This is really an OLD battle that goes back over 10 years. DirecTV was also P.O.'d about it as well, and they stood with Dish on this issue back then. I don't think DirecTV is in favor of being forced to comply, either, but I don't know what their full position is on the matter TODAY, just that Echostar seems to be taking a different legal path (logic or argument) than DirecTV, but both don't like this.
THIS SPECIFIC ISSUE is NOT about forcing MVPD's to adopt a broad general tech spec to facilitate 3rd party STB's in general, although this is ONE component of that goal, being AllVid, just that if there is a STANDARD for encoding RELATING TO ENCRYPTION OR CCI or other like COPYRIGHT PROTECTION, it could create an environment where 3rd parties could design an STB that would be in compliance with COPYRIGHT PROTECTION technology on any MVPD because it would be standardized. The movie studios want this as much as the FCC. Or the FCC wants this because the movie studios want this. However, this has NOTHING directly to do with meeting any of the other unique technical standards of DirecTV or Dish or Cable or IPTV (Uverse), or FiOS. This is JUST AN ENCODING STANDARD FOR IMPLEMENTATION FOR CCI LIKE COPYRIGHT PROTECTION OR ENCRYPTION. However, the FCC pushing for its adoption NOW can only be seen as part of its other, recently strong, push for AllVid as the answer to provide consumer choice for STB's beyond the MVPD itself to include 3rd parties, such as TiVo, or other CES companies interested in making such devices.
For me, the only problem with this vision is that the MVPD's will still continue to offer their STB's FREE or at a huge discount as they do today. How many people are really going to shell out the full retail price of hundreds of $$ for just ONE STB, and it may lack features the MVPD boxes have. Is the FCC to mandate that the MVPD's sell their in-house boxes at full retail so that 3rd parties are not at an unfair disadvantage? I think TiVo has been the loudest voice, although several CE companies and even retailer Best Buy support 3rd party participation and AllVid. Just look at the new DirecTiVo. What a neutered old tech box it is that costs more per month and in upfront cost than DirecTV's own product, and the TiVo lacks features such as Whole Home DVR that DirecTV DVR's have and DirecTiVo can't even offer strong features of its RETAIL TiVo product for all the extra expense and old Series 3 platform guts, looks and performance. And how many TiVo subscribers are left in the US? So few subscribers interested in 3rd party DVR's that Moxie no longer sells theirs at retail and will cease support from them in a little over a year. A lot of people spent between $700 - $1000 or more for soon to be bricks. The Sezmi DVR, a very competitive product for OTA recording, died last year and became pretty much a boat anchor on the final day of support with, what, about one month or two notice? And, ironically, innovation has NOT come from TiVo of late, but from the MVPD's themselves: true whole home DVR products, Xfinity, Dish's Prime Time Anytime feature and BEST and fastest UI of them all on 922 and Hopper products, along with the OTT box makers (OUTSIDE the MVPD arena) like Roku and the versatile Boxee Box. This is one area the FCC should just BUTT-OUTT and let the market take care of things. Cable and Sat are as affordable as they are today (no upfront cost) precisely because people DON't choose a 3rd party STB. 3rd party STB's are for the RICH, like all those TiVo owners who subscribe to cable or FiOS. Their cost is incredible, not to mention all the "Lifetime" subscribers who have paid $500 (most have more than one TiVo with such costs) in addition to buying the box at retail. We don't need more 3rd party boxes, we need MORE MVPD's, and I'm glad to see Apple and Google (they seem to have put it on hold for now) and one of the CE TV manufactures (Samsung?), I can't recall which, even Echostar/Dish try and develop NEW LESS expensive MVPD services via the internet along with the Verizon and Redbox collaboration being good competition for Netflix and Blockbuster and Amazon, as well. None of these developments has a thing to do with 3rd party STB's. Futhermore, AllVid as currently proposed has technical limitations that could diminish what consumers can now receive from some MVPD's such as a technical limitation of SIX "steams" or "tuners" coming into the home. Those of us with more than 6 Dish sat tuners (well, I used to have more than 6 up until a few months ago) would view AllVid as a huge step backward.
Any lawyers, please feel free to correct. I only posted this because it seemed nobody really understood it, least of all me
.
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Keep in mind, lots of companies sue the FCC nearly every day. They all do it when they either don't want to comply or fell that a requirement is unfair, too expensive, or puts them at a disadvantage, often because a competitor has persuaded the FCC to see things their way, not the competition's. A fair number of times these suits actually go to trail, like when the FCC tried to mandate broadcasters to use CCI for all content. The FCC LOST! OR should it be stated that HOLLYWOOD LOST! Hollywood abandoned the broadcaster requirement and focused on MVPD's. There is no animosity in all this. It really is quite the norm. Business as usual in Washington. All those people and their lawyers have lunch together.
Wow, thanks for taking the time to read deeper into the linked document. After reading your take on this I went back and read through it all, and again I could be wrong, but I think your read on this is pretty accurate. The only place we differ is in the opinion about 3rd parties being able to produce STBs. I still think if allowed to produce 3rd parties could really innovate. Using Tivo as the example, I think that because of Tivo Most MVPDs STBs now offer DVR functionality. The more players in an arena the better it is for consumers, more choice is never a bad thing. Sure there will always be a good many customers that will only want whatever they can get for free from the providers, but there will also be a good market for 3rd party options and when more 3rd parties join the party price will drop. Again use the cable dsl modem example. Sure there are plenty of consumers that will take whatever modem the carriers provide but there is also a huge market for 3rd party modems with more functionality built in and prices continue to drop on those items. I'll always be a proponent of competition and as little government involvement as possible.
dfergie said:
Agreed they were very neat! If those boxes were available in my area I would seriously consider cable.
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We forget that Echostar was spun off so it could go after independent hardware business. It looks like they are developing a significant presense in Europe and Asia
Echostar released cable-ready set-tops what, two years ago ? I said it back then, and I'm sure it's still the case, but they would be a failure.
Wouldn't Echostar be afraid that offering this to the cable companies would cause some of the Dish subscribers to go to cable? But then again the money they would make off the cable companies would probably offset that I would think.
The typical cable customer gives ZERO thought or consideration to what brand of set-top is used by the cable company.
I'm all for EchoStar getting into the consumer set-top-box market. I still have my Sony HD DVR (w/cablecard) and Tivos. Of course, Sony got out of the consumer DVR market in 2006, Moxi came and went in less than 2-years, and we're still waiting for something from Ceton. Conversely, I don't see EchoStar busting down doors to bring an AllVid gateway device to market so consumers can buy compatible set-top boxes for use the PayTV provider of their choice...cable, satellite or telco.
I would certainly consider buying an EchoStar cable-ready HD DVR.
I would certainly consider buying an EchoStar cable-ready HD DVR.
I know the typical cable customer don't but I am sure they take more careful consideration of the features that are offered on those set-top boxes. Some Dish Network customers might switch to cable if they could get that same type of functionality. Maybe this is why Echostar has not done this here in the U.S. yet?
The functionality might be available from the box, but the cableco will disable it. They will put their software on it (for a variety of reasons, many of which are perfectly valid) and completely dumb down any cool or advanced features.
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