E* to start donwrezzing??

[dispatcher_21]

Well, I decided to go to the horses mouth and sent an email to E* about this. Here is the emails that we sent back and fourth. The original email is at the bottom and most recent on top:

Short answer for you, NO. I don't see any plans to enforce this downres
unless we are mandated by the FCC. We are however making plans just incase
the FCC does come out and mandate that we do.

You might want to check this website out:
http://www.eff.org/IP/Video/HDTV/eff_fcc_comments.php



Jamie

-----Original Message-----
From: Emilio Serrano [mailto:dispatcher_21@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 1:05 PM
To: McDaniel, Jamie
Subject: RE: FW: Technical Support,

I do appreciate the timely response but it still does not answer the
question of, will you downrezz analog outputs if not mandated by the FCC??
I understand that the FCC may not mandate downrezzing of analog outputs,
but that content providers are requesting it. So again, the question is,
will Echostar bend to the demands of the content provider and downrezz
analog outputs if not forced to by the FCC??


>From: "McDaniel, Jamie" <Jamie.McDaniel@echostar.com>
>To: "'dispatcher_21@hotmail.com'" <dispatcher_21@hotmail.com>
>CC: "'dispatcher_21@hotmail.com'" <dispatcher_21@hotmail.com>
>Subject: FW: Technical Support,
>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:02:05 -0600
>
>
>
> Mr. Serrano,
>
> We appreciate your questions and are also anxiously keeping
>a close eye on upcoming regulations.
>
> The FCC is looking at regulations that will affect
>everyone's High Definition content. These regulations will affect DBS,
>Cable, Over The Air and HD-DVD and is not limited to only Dish Network.
>Unfortunately, this is not something that will be by choice but imposed by
>regulations.
>
> Most monitor equipment cannot display a higher resolution
>picture than what the regulations are calling for. So while it will affect
>the content, most customers will not see any difference in picture quality.
>
> There is no set start date for this regulation, at this
>point, and Dish Network will not begin to follow the regulation until we
>are
>required to do so.
>
> You also asked about HDCP; as you know:
> HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection) is
>a specified method from Intel for protecting copyrighted digital
>entertainment content that uses the Digital Video Interface (DVI) by
>encrypting its transmission between the video source and the digital
>display
>(monitor).
> The video source might be a computer, set-top box,
>or digital versatile disc (DVD) player, and the digital display might be an
>liquid crystal display (LCD) television, plasma panel, or projector.
> All authorized devices are given a set of unique
>secret device keys from the Digital Content Protection LLC, which is the
>organization that licenses technologies for digital content protection.
>During the authentication process, the receiver must demonstrate its
>knowledge of the secret device keys before content is sent.
> After the receiver acknowledges the keys, both
>devices generate a shared secret value that is designed to prevent
>eavesdroppers from stealing the content. After authentication, the content
>is encrypted and sent to the receiver that decrypts it.
> If the Digital Content Protection LLC determines
>that a set of secret device keys has been compromised, it places the keys
>on
>a revocation list and provides the authorized devices with a new set of
>keys, which is called renewability. During authentication, the transmitter
>checks the revocation list before sending any content.
> There are also some other content protection schemes that
>are being considered by broadcasters and HBO has already started using
>something called CGMS-A -- Content Generation Management System for Analog.
>I encourage you to read up on this content protection at
>http://www.hbo.com/corpinfo/cgmsafaq.shtml
><http://www.hbo.com/corpinfo/cgmsafaq.shtml>
> I hope that I have answered your questions and concerns,
>
>
> Jamie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dispatcher_21@hotmail.com
><mailto:dispatcher_21@hotmail.com> <mailto:dispatcher_21@hotmail.com
><mailto:dispatcher_21@hotmail.com> > [mailto:dispatcher_21@hotmail.com
><mailto:dispatcher_21@hotmail.com> ]
><mailto:[mailto:dispatcher_21@hotmail.com]
><mailto:[mailto:dispatcher_21@hotmail.com]> >
> Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 6:55 PM
> To: Tech
> Subject: Technical Support,
>
>
>
> Full Name: Emilio Account Number: >Question: I have read on AVSForum.com and Satelliteguys.us HD forums that
this summer you plan on starting the use of HDCP on your HD broadcasts. From what I understand, when you do start HDCP, you plan on downrezzing analog component outputs on the 811 and 921. I don't know if this is true but I felt compelled to write to let you know that if this is indeed true, I and probably several thousand HD fans will cancel our accounts as soon as possible. I would venture to say that the vast majority of your HD customers have older sets that don't have DVI, only analog component inputs on their tv's. You may say, "Well,eventually everyone will enforce HDCP and downrezz.", well I guess I will get my HD over the air for free and purchase or rent movies on HD-DVD. Again I don't know if this is true but be warned that you will have a severe backlash from your customers and lots of canceled accounts. Hopefully this can be avoided with a more precise decision from the FCC on if this will be allowed on analog outputs or if the downrezzing will only be applied to DVI outputs. Again, if it is true that you plan to downrezz, I encourage you to reconsider this course of action.

_________________________________________________________________

 

[Foxbat]

I had read this in Gary Merson's "HDTV Insider News" from the September/October issue of "The Perfect Vision". I was trying to figure out to whom I should send the bill for my new Toshiba 34" HDTV: Echostar? Toshiba? Micheal Powell? The MPAA?

If the Government passes a law that invalidates my $2,500 HDTV monitor, why shouldn't I be able to write it off on my taxes?

 

[Neutron]

Does it not have DVI?

 

[OdiOdin]

OMG LOL, they are going to use a key system for hdcp? I thought it was supposed to be a proprietory hardware lock with broadcast flag?

This will be hacked much much faster

what an enormous waste of time

 

[Foxbat]

Does it not have DVI?

It's a 34HF81, which pre-dates the DVI-equipped models that were made the next year.

I'll be fair to our over-drawn Government: I'll charge them only $1,399, the price for the new Toshiba 34HF84. I may be able to get it for less than that, even.

See, I'll meet them half-way.

 

[David_Levin]

dispatcher_21:

Wow, they gave you a pretty detailed answer way beyond the knowledge of the usual CSR (probably over Charlie's head).

Even if they answer your more recent question:

will Echostar bend to the demands of the content provider

I'm not sure you could trust the answer. Would you rather have down-rezzed Analog content, or no content at all? If Direct and Cable agree, Dish will have to also. It's really not completely under thier control.

 

[markdl]

Kudos to Jamie McDaniel for that response. I believe that's the most direct, well written and to the point response that actually answers the direct questions that I've ever seen from an E* CSR.

 

[TheWarden]

I don't think it'll work on older receivers

being receivers that don't have the Broadcast Flag built into it.

Say I go out and buy an OTA receiver now (non-E*) that doesn't have the BF functionality built into it...The only way I can think of that the local stations would be able to keep me from viewing the programming in it's full quality would be to change the format (8VSB to something else) so that I'm forced to upgrade. If the BF is in the signal, but my receiver doesn't know what to do with it, it shouldn't affect me. The receiver should just ignore it.

I'd guess that something similar goes for the 6000. Dish would either have to massively rewrite the code in the receiver to make it downrezz (if receiver = 6000 then downrezz) or force users to de-activate the 6000's. I doubt they'll do either since one will take a really long time and the other will cause customer's to leave.

AFAIK, the FCC hasn't mandated that any HD-receiver be BF-enabled until July 2005.

 

[AJF]

I have component inputs only on my 65" RPTV which cost me over $5,000 a few years ago and I am absolutely PISSED about this issue of down-rezzing . Dish has little to do with this, this comes from HBO . And I'm sure HBO will say that it is being forced to do this by Hollywood .

What makes this even more complicated is that we get HBO-HD for "free" by subscribing to HBO . Now, the best way to get our point accross is to vote with our wallets, but there's no way to drop just HBO-HD . I'd have to drop HBO entirely which I really don't want to do, especially since I subscribe to the Everything Pak to save on DVR fees . Besides, I like the programming, I just have a problem with the down-rez issue .

And I don't think that the FCC has much say in the matter, I think they only have jurisdiction over the broadcast (OTA) sector.

 

[WeeJavaDude]

OMG LOL, they are going to use a key system for hdcp? I thought it was supposed to be a proprietory hardware lock with broadcast flag?

This will be hacked much much faster

what an enormous waste of time

Isnt SSL a key system and isnt SSL the trusted form of encrypted payment information on the internet. From what i read a above it sound like they are implemented a public/private keys system and from what I know public/private key mechanism they tend to be pretty secure as long as the private key is not compromised.

From my understanding not all key systems are easily hacked.

 

[Cyclone]

I think that the funniest part is that Down Rezzed movies and shows to 480p would make them smaller in size and easier to ftp around or burn to DVDs.

 

[David_Levin]

I think that the funniest part is that Down Rezzed movies and shows to 480p would make them smaller in size and easier to ftp around or burn to DVDs.

Doesn't matter. You can already down-rez if you want to. I can set my 921 to output 480p. I assume the 6000 can scale to this resolution as well.

I'm sure if EchoStar was forced to they could program the 6000 to downrez based on some new information added to the program stream.

I hope this never happens, but the risk is there.

 

[Unthinkable]

480p is NOT HD, it doesn't fall within the definition. 720p and 1080i are the good guys.

Thats one of my biggest annoyances with the back of any random X-Box game which lists 480p as HD. Not cool to advertise this wrongly to young kids who likely won't know any better until a much later date.

Edit: just realized Neutron posted the same pet peeve in reply to your post.

 

[markdl]

The 6000 can't downrez to 480p. That resolution was added with the 811 and the 921. The only output resolutions for the 6000 are 1080i, 720p and 480i.

 

[ocaddict]

I think this is one of the most ridiculous rumors I've heard about yet. Not even worth commenting on. (like I just did).

 

[AJF]

Why do you think that they demanded the broadcast flag exist in the first place ?

 

[OdiOdin]

Isnt SSL a key system and isnt SSL the trusted form of encrypted payment information on the internet. From what i read a above it sound like they are implemented a public/private keys system and from what I know public/private key mechanism they tend to be pretty secure as long as the private key is not compromised.

From my understanding not all key systems are easily hacked.

your right, the public/private key mechanism used on the internet is a fine encryption technology and not easily hacked. In this case they are using a similar key based encryption method, BUT they are negotiating which one to use first. This is inheritedly unsafe on several counts.

1. the negotiation itself can be monitored and mimicked.
2. there is a set list of keys to be used.
3. decryption is much faster when you know what the input and output are. (the public key system over the internet is partially effective because it is hard to speculate just what is being transmitted, with broadcast signals this isn't a secret).

 

[WeeJavaDude]

your right, the public/private key mechanism used on the internet is a fine encryption technology and not easily hacked. In this case they are using a similar key based encryption method, BUT they are negotiating which one to use first. This is inheritedly unsafe on several counts.

1. the negotiation itself can be monitored and mimicked.
2. there is a set list of keys to be used.
3. decryption is much faster when you know what the input and output are. (the public key system over the internet is partially effective because it is hard to speculate just what is being transmitted, with broadcast signals this isn't a secret).

<<< Clip from the response >>>
All authorized devices are given a set of unique secret device keys from the Digital Content Protection LLC, which is the organization that licenses technologies for digital content protection.
<<< end >>>

I got the impression from this above statement that the DCP was issuing keys and acting like the RSA in this manner. That led me to believe that the private key was required to hack. This is not the case?

 

[SimpleSimon]

If you had the private key, the hack is done.

The part that gets me is this "renewable" business where if they discover that a private key has been compromised, they will cancel it and issue a new one. How the heck are they going to get that into my TV, and how do they protect THAT action from immediately being compromised?

 

[OdiOdin]

You must also remember the intelligence level of those involved in the DRM crowd. I mean they tried to copy protect cd's with an autorun program and even initially threatened legal action against a kid for writing a paper saying that autrun can be disabled by holding down the shift key

In the end, I imagine it is already hacked by someone. This isn't a new thing and the full specifications are available on the website if you want to make a compliant device. (or quickly mod a compliant device )

I got the impression from this above statement that the DCP was issuing keys and acting like the RSA in this manner. That led me to believe that the private key was required to hack. This is not the case?

The DCP LLC is an organization that is going to mantain a white list/black list of keys to be used by "approved" devices. The RSA is an alogorithm that uses random large primes to generate unique keys.

The private key might not even be needed to hack in this case, but it probably wouldn't be hard to get either.