Driving the HD DVD Juggernaut.

[John Kotches]

Please, run spell check; it's Baron not Barron in this context.

Now that we have that out of the way; let's correct the next misunderstanding.

VC-1 no longer belongs to Microsoft. One of the things that had to happen was that MS turned over what was once the WM9 Video codec as an open standard. It is now controlled by SMPTE as standard 421M.

Yes, MS makes encoders (and damned good ones). You know they can actually make some great products at MS; and their VC-1 encoders are an example of that. Sure MS is pushing VC-1; they built the original technology and they have some the most talented people around working on the encoders. In the end; if the result of the VC-1 encodes wasn't an exceptional product it wouldn't be used by the studios. It is and that's the real reason it's being used.

As an FYI; they haven't stood still working on the VC-1 encoder. Over the last year they've made significant improvements on several fronts. They have achieved about 20-30% more efficiency from the encoder and simultaneously lowered the amount of intervention for some of the difficult to encode sequences.

Sure MPEG-2 can look "as good" as VC-1; but it takes between 1.5 and 2x the bit rate to do so. That's space that could be used for HD extras. Take a look at the bit rates sometime on a good MPEG-2 encode. It'll be an ABR of 25Mb/sec or higher.

Hey, I have been watching M$'s game for 20 years and for many of those years I have never seen where any company that got into bed with M$ ever got out of bed with its legs attached. I believe that Gates will do anything to push VC-1 and HD-DVD to become the HD standard. That includes pushing Toshiba out of the way. Three years ago he tried to get VC-1 as the main compression technology for everything sent over the internet. He just is about there. I see M$ as big brother and while I like some of their products most are just overpriced copycats of products from other companies. Once upon a time there were great spreadsheets and wordprocessors and OS's with promise -- now there seems to be just M$. One day we will probably be paying M$ to drink water. I see Bill Gates and Microsoft as the last true 'Robber Barron' alive (the only true technology Robber Barron). And I think they act that way all the time.

 

[BlackHitachi]

Please, run spell check; it's Baron not Barron in this context.

Now that we have that out of the way; let's correct the next misunderstanding.

VC-1 no longer belongs to Microsoft. One of the things that had to happen was that MS turned over what was once the WM9 Video codec as an open standard. It is now controlled by SMPTE as standard 421M.

Yes, MS makes encoders (and damned good ones). You know they can actually make some great products at MS; and their VC-1 encoders are an example of that. Sure MS is pushing VC-1; they built the original technology and they have some the most talented people around working on the encoders. In the end; if the result of the VC-1 encodes wasn't an exceptional product it wouldn't be used by the studios. It is and that's the real reason it's being used.

As an FYI; they haven't stood still working on the VC-1 encoder. Over the last year they've made significant improvements on several fronts. They have achieved about 20-30% more efficiency from the encoder and simultaneously lowered the amount of intervention for some of the difficult to encode sequences.

Sure MPEG-2 can look "as good" as VC-1; but it takes between 1.5 and 2x the bit rate to do so. That's space that could be used for HD extras. Take a look at the bit rates sometime on a good MPEG-2 encode. It'll be an ABR of 25Mb/sec or higher.

Thank you for the great post JOHN very good information!

 

[JoeSp]

You know John, I really like it when you correct my missteps. At least you are nice about it. And you actually impart some info while your doing it. Thanks. But I am still wary about M$. They very seldom get involved with something if they can not see controlling the 'action' later on. Maybe they are turning over a new leaf?

 

[vurbano]

Please, run spell check; it's Baron not Barron in this context.

Now that we have that out of the way; let's correct the next misunderstanding.

VC-1 no longer belongs to Microsoft. One of the things that had to happen was that MS turned over what was once the WM9 Video codec as an open standard. It is now controlled by SMPTE as standard 421M.

Yes, MS makes encoders (and damned good ones). You know they can actually make some great products at MS; and their VC-1 encoders are an example of that. Sure MS is pushing VC-1; they built the original technology and they have some the most talented people around working on the encoders. In the end; if the result of the VC-1 encodes wasn't an exceptional product it wouldn't be used by the studios. It is and that's the real reason it's being used.

As an FYI; they haven't stood still working on the VC-1 encoder. Over the last year they've made significant improvements on several fronts. They have achieved about 20-30% more efficiency from the encoder and simultaneously lowered the amount of intervention for some of the difficult to encode sequences.

Sure MPEG-2 can look "as good" as VC-1; but it takes between 1.5 and 2x the bit rate to do so. That's space that could be used for HD extras. Take a look at the bit rates sometime on a good MPEG-2 encode. It'll be an ABR of 25Mb/sec or higher.

great post. What makes me roll my eyes is the ridiculous amount of BD fans at AVS who continually try to use the higher bitrates of mpeg2 as evidence that mpeg2 is "better" than VC-1. They just do not get it. They refuse to admit that VC-1 is a superior codec. If a codec produces the same picture in far less space and at a much smaller bitrate then IMO it is superior. Its a silly, no brainer arguement.

 

[John Kotches]

Joe:

There's no question they would like to see VC-1 become the dominant encoding format; just as others would like to see AVC/H.264 become the dominant codec.

It ties back to IP royalties in the end; and that's something that can offer huge dividends.

Right now; for off-line encodes; Panasonic is the biggest provider; and they're charging a king's ransom for the encoder. But they aren't putting the same effort into it as MS is. There's a new VC-1 encoder revision of 4-8 weeks. This is why it's progressed so rapidly.

 

[BlackHitachi]

great post. What makes me roll my eyes is the ridiculous amount of BD fans at AVS who continually try to use the higher bitrates of mpeg2 as evidence that mpeg2 is "better" than VC-1. They just do not get it. They refuse to admit that VC-1 is a superior codec. If a codec produces the same picture in far less space and at a much smaller bitrate then IMO it is superior. Its a silly, no brainer arguement.

Agreed! Blu ray has bigger disk size. I wouldn't call that superior format.

 

[BobMurdoch]

Remember... it's not big you are, but how you use it.

Sorry, couldn't resist....

 

[BlackHitachi]

Remember... it's not big you are, but how you use it.

Sorry, couldn't resist....

LMAO!

 

[BobMurdoch]

Sometimes these jokes just write themselves......

 

[vurbano]

Sometimes these jokes just write themselves......

I knew that one was coming.

 

[ronjohn]

Agreed! Blu ray has bigger disk size. I wouldn't call that superior format.

The disks having more space is a hardware advantage. The discussion about VC-1 is about codecs. HDDVD has hardware advantages also, but I think that in 5-10 years, four-layer BDs will not have enough room for what people want to use it for. The space available on HDDVDs will have run out long before that. I don't know what all of the space will be used for, but for the history of electronic storage, available space will be used, and more needed.

 

[bommai]

The biggest problem for HD-DVD is studio support. Of the 7 major Hollywood studios, 6 are with Bluray. One (Universal) is exclusively with HD-DVD. So, by buying Bluray you are only missing Universal movies. By buying HD-DVD, you are missing movies from Fox, Disney, and Sony Pictures. This includes all the Disney hits, Pixar hits, Star Wars, all James Bond, etc. Only Paramount and Warner are on both sides. So, even Matrix and LOTR will come for Bluray too. That is why I am planning on getting a PS3. I heard really good reviews about the Bluray playback on that.

 

[navychop]

Support from the "big 8" Studios:

HD-DVD only:
Universal Pictures

Blu-ray only:
Lions Gate
MGM
Sony Pictures Home Entertainment
Twentieth Century Fox
Walt Disney Pictures and Television
. (including Walt Disney Home Entertainment, Hollywood Pictures Home Video,
. Touchstone Home Entertainment, Miramax Home Entertainment, Buena Vista
. Home Entertainment, Dimension Home Video and Disney DVD)

Supports both:
Paramount Pictures
Warner Bros. Studios (including New Line Cinema)


Taken from here.


The same source states that a hybrid (single-sided, triple-layer) disc is in the works. It can hold 25 GB of Blu-ray content and 8.5 GB of standard def content all on one side of a disc). A 50 GB Blu-ray and 8.5 GB hybrid disc currently also in the works.

Industry support for Blu-ray includes Dell, Hitachi, Panasonic, Pioneer, Philips, Samsung, Sharp, TDK, Thomson, etc. Industry support for HD-DVD includes Microsoft and Intel, etc. Apple will support both. See the link for more info.

If this info is out of date, please update me and I will correct this posting.

 

[BobMurdoch]

HD DVD also has The Weinstein Co., the support of most of the independent studios (including all the porn producers, except Vivid who will, um, swing both ways and release on both formats).

Also, many MGM catalog titles are available from European markets or any other market that produces English language product. Since HD DVD has no region coding, you can import any discs you want. This could be a real growth area for Virgin Records Stores who already does the same with CDs.

One thing though,.... I don't know if NTSC or PAL factors into things..... Anyone?

 

[John Kotches]

Why oh why do they continue to list MGM as seperate from Sony when Sony is in the driver's seat when it comes to MGM releases.

Cheers,

 

[mike123abc]

Why oh why do they continue to list MGM as seperate from Sony when Sony is in the driver's seat when it comes to MGM releases.

Cheers,

Sony does not own all of MGM, just enough to secure US distribution rights of video titles.

 

[jgags6]

Support from the "big 8" Studios:

Industry support for Blu-ray includes Apple, Dell, Hitachi, Panasonic, Pioneer, Philips, Samsung, Sharp, TDK, Thomson, etc. Industry support for HD-DVD includes Microsoft and Intel, etc. See the link for more info.

If this info is out of date, please update me and I will correct this posting.

Actually Apple will support both... http://www.dvdtown.com/news/thenextappleoswillplayhddvdbluray/4284

 

[hpman247]

HD DVD also has The Weinstein Co., the support of most of the independent studios (including all the porn producers, except Vivid who will, um, swing both ways and release on both formats).

Also, many MGM catalog titles are available from European markets or any other market that produces English language product. Since HD DVD has no region coding, you can import any discs you want. This could be a real growth area for Virgin Records Stores who already does the same with CDs.

One thing though,.... I don't know if NTSC or PAL factors into things..... Anyone?

And when did porn decide a Next-gen DVD war. That has to be the most outlandish comment that I have ever heard, you you HD DVD supporters stick by the pron. I cannot beleive that some $50 releases on HD DVD for porn will have any influence.

 

[jaybertx]

And when did porn decide a Next-gen DVD war. That has to be the most outlandish comment that I have ever heard, you you HD DVD supporters stick by the pron. I cannot beleive that some $50 releases on HD DVD for porn will have any influence.

A lot of people believe that one of the big reasons that VHS beat out Beta was because the pr0n industry embraced VHS... I don't know how valid that is but google it and you'll see.

As big as the pr0n industry is, does anyone really think that a "war" involving all of the big Hollywood studios will be decided by pr0n? Especially since any type of media has to compete with digital distribution? Seems a bit naive to me...

 

[ronjohn]

A lot of people believe that one of the big reasons that VHS beat out Beta was because the pr0n industry embraced VHS... I don't know how valid that is but google it and you'll see.

As big as the pr0n industry is, does anyone really think that a "war" involving all of the big Hollywood studios will be decided by pr0n? Especially since any type of media has to compete with digital distribution? Seems a bit naive to me...

In the VHS/Beta days, it had a big impact because video porn was not readily available at home. You could purchase a VHS player to rent movies, and also watch porn. Today there are many ways to access porn at home.(Sat, internet, cable, DVD, etc.) I don't think it will have as much of an impact this go around.