DishHD-Lite: Can We Ask Some REAL QUESTIONS During Tonight's Tech?

[Tom Bombadil]

We have had this argument on the various DBS Forums for 10 years.

Decreasing the number of channels for greater PQ only works if the channel you want to see is still being carried.

Er, I guess you missed the point I made about where moving to the next gen MPEG4 allowed them to both improve PQ and the number of channels carried.

There would be no need to drop any current channels. In fact, they could add many (over 100) additional channels and still improve PQ.

The implementation of the next generation MPEG4 encoding is the magic opportunity to do this. That was the whole point of my post.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

i never seen OTA HD feed. how does it look. is it as good as dvd quality ??? or better.........any video clips.

It would have to be terrible HD to not be better than DVD.

If one is lucky enough to live within OTA reception distance of a HD station that isn't chopping up their bandwidth for digital side channels, then the HD quality can be stunning.

I get 5 such channels. Unfortunately, I'm not much of a fan of network programming and so only rarely watch them. Sports are great on them.

 

[Sammy033]

i never seen OTA HD feed. how does it look. is it as good as dvd quality ??? or better.........any video clips.

Much much better.

 

[kstuart]

Er, I guess you missed the point I made about where moving to the next gen MPEG4 allowed them to both improve PQ and the number of channels carried.

There would be no need to drop any current channels. In fact, they could add many (over 100) additional channels and still improve PQ.

The implementation of the next generation MPEG4 encoding is the magic opportunity to do this. That was the whole point of my post.

The PQ is always as good as the bandwidth available.

If new satellites allowed more bandwidth than was needed for the channels carried, then E* would undoubtedly increase the bandwidth per channel.

The E* Engineers do watch these channels too.

They would not leave bandwidth idle, doing nothing.

 

[db2]

If new satellites allowed more bandwidth than was needed for the channels carried, then E* would undoubtedly increase the bandwidth per channel.

Not necessarily. Dish may very well cram several channels onto one active transponder and leave several other transponders empty for future channels.

In other words if one transponder can fit 6 HD channels with marginal quality and there are two transponders available for 6 HD channels, Dish will most likely put all 6 on one transponder and leave the other one open for future needs. They will almost certainly do this instead of putting 3 HD channels on each transponder with exceptional quality.

I stick by my speculation that Dish will keep applying compression to any channel (HD or SD) on any satellite (current or future) using any compression (mpeg4 or mpeg2) to the point where enough people complain and then they will back off.

 

[Smith P.]

The packing of each transponder could be a requirement based on satellite restrictions ( battery capacity).

 

[db2]

The packing of each transponder could be a requirement based on satellite restrictions ( battery capacity).

The satellite may require the transponder's full bandwidth be used but that doesn't say anything about the number of channels. You can pack a transponder with 3 mpeg4 HD channels at a very high bit rate or you can pack it with 6 mpeg4 channels at a significantly lower bitrate. I am speculating that E* will choose the later.

 

[Smith P.]

I'm agree with you - no doubts; just trying to find a reason why Dish avoid half loading tpns.

 

[Drone35]

I think Dish is afraid that we would really love having 3 or4 Hd channels per transponder running a high birate! We would be getting this jaw dropping picture then as they start packing the transponders with more channels we start bitching again like we did a year ago when everything went to 1440x1080 and 1280x1080. Things have quieted down on the HD lite band wagon( where are u Goaliebob) and Dish likes that! The new mpeg4 transponders have took some pressure off of Dish with giving us a slightly better pq, but they will continue to pack em full and our pq will be going back down! The race is for the most HD channels not the best pq! Cable companies should jump all over this with claims that they have quality over quanity! Don't know if this would work most newbies getting HD don't know the difference between real HD and watered down HD! So they may go with more, we have suddenlink here in the Amarillo, tx area, which was Cox and their HD is awsome, full 1920x1080 with high birates! Its just a compromise with everything right now!

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

I dont think Dish is affraid of that.

I think part of the solution to getting full resolution was turned on this week on a handfull of channels, and that fix is "DRM" HBO and the movie companies do not want people to be able to make copies of their movies in pristiene condition, if folks figured a way to rip the video to their computers, then sales of HD DVD and BluRay discs would drop off, and thus DRM has been added to the mix so when USB archiving comes you wont be able to do this.

Remember, Rome was not built in a day.

 

[Drone35]

I dont think Dish is affraid of that.

I think part of the solution to getting full resolution was turned on this week on a handfull of channels, and that fix is "DRM" HBO and the movie companies do not want people to be able to make copies of their movies in pristiene condition, if folks figured a way to rip the video to their computers, then sales of HD DVD and BluRay discs would drop off, and thus DRM has been added to the mix so when USB archiving comes you wont be able to do this.

Remember, Rome was not built in a day.

I don't know if this really true or not about being afraid, but if I had a Satellite company I would be a little concerned about what my customers would think or might do when I start reducing the pq! That seems a little lame that HBO might be worried about this, people are already renting high quality HD DVD'S and BluRay discs and burning them to their computers and recopying them! People will always find a way! DRM must be a new ecreption codec, thus people are working just as hard to come out with a new increpter to break the code! I'm not saying this right, but it is a ongoing war! By the way which channels went full rez!
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[riffjim4069]

I haven't had time to get back to this issue (and still don't for that matter), but this particular problem is certainly an encoder issue. I don't really watch HD LIL very often, but I was recording CSI via OTA last night and, while I was downstairs watching the Pistons on another TV, my wife tuned into Grey's Anatomy (or something like it) on WJLA-DT. Once again, the channel went crazy with the similar six-frames and other garbage for a few minutes. Like I mentioned, I don't watch E* HD LIL often enough to pick-out any particular patterns, but this is the 2nd time I've managed to record the problem on this particular channel. (I'll have to upload the recording this evening).

Anyway, this happened on both of my 622s...pre and post L4.05 upgrade. All DC HD LIL are on Echo12 (aka Rainbow1), TP5. The other three HD LIL channels on TP5 were coming in fine at the time and my signal level was locked at 105. Perhaps I should ask if anyone else has noticed these problems with the Washington HD LIL?

Like I posted last summer...after three months of horrible, choppy, blocky broadcasts the Dish engineers did a great job or fixing the MPEG4 encoder for the DC folks - by late last summer the HD LIL was looking pretty good (720p channels were almost as good as OTA, the 1080i were a little soft but respectable).

http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=61079&highlight=washington

Anyway, this does not negate the fact DishHD channels have, by and large, been looking worse, and worse, and lighter, and lighter in recent times. The DC LIL do not look nearly as good as they did 10 months ago....this is a fact clearly visible on my HDTVs.

1. Is Dish Network the best HD value for those who cannot receive FiOS TV? Yes!
2. Is Dish Network offer the best HD viewing experience? No!
3. Is Dish Network watering down their DishHD Yes!
4. Is overloading transponders leading to the issues I am observing? I think so!

I'll send an email to DishQuality and see what they have to say...

 

[db2]

I think part of the solution to getting full resolution was turned on this week on a handfull of channels, and that fix is "DRM" HBO and the movie companies do not want people to be able to make copies of their movies in pristiene condition, if folks figured a way to rip the video to their computers, then sales of HD DVD and BluRay discs would drop off, and thus DRM has been added to the mix so when USB archiving comes you wont be able to do this.

I think you're reaching a bit with that conclusion Scott. IMHO E* does not compress so that people can't make pristiene copies, they compress to save space because space = $.

I would love it if E* used the two new sattelites to move all 1080i HD to 1920 mpeg4 with plenty of bitrate but their history has not led me to believe they will.

 

[GeorgeLV]

I got a chance to really watch Jims video. And it really is an issue on his side. If ESPN looked like that for everyone we would never hear the end of it.

That's not ESPN, it's an ABC HD-LiL.

 

[kstuart]

People keep ignoring the main points:

- Dish gives the HD channels as much bandwidth as they have available.

- If Dish turns off the HD channel you want to see (in order to keep 1920x1080 for other channels), then your HD PQ is zero.

- Digital broadcasts are all lossey - some data is always removed from the original camera feed. Encoders remove whatever data they can, that is least visible. Since most HD owners have 1280x720 sets, then lowering the resolution of 1920x1080 channels is just the same as all other encoding choices - i.e. removing data that is not visible to most viewers.

The "HD Lite" premise is based on the false idea that the camera feed can be provided to consumers in a lossless format, yet this has not happened once in the USA. Since all digital HD is lossey, it's up to the provider to choose data to remove that is not visible to the average user. All HD broadcasts do this. The other false premise of "HD Lite" is that resolution somehow matters more than other factors. In reality, there are many factors that affect PQ, and resolution is only one. For sports, resolution is not the most important factor, and the most qualified experts (such as Joe Kane) have stated that 720p is better for sports and action than 1080i - i.e. resolution is not always the most important factor.

Please don't ignore these facts.

 

[pdxsam]

Cable companies should jump all over this with claims that they have quality over quanity!

That's not necessarily true though. Comcast is known to pretty heavily bandwidth throttle in a lot of areas.

There's no perfect answer.

 

[gadgtfreek]

Comcast is getting sued by D* for the supposed polls where people claimed cable looked better than sat. Funny.