DIRECTV Getting Sued over HD Lite

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Well maybe this guys lawyer should use some of D's commercials against them. I just saw one that claimed their HD programs were broadcast in 1080i. HA that has to be a complete misleading of the customer.
 
Well DirecTV apologists or bashers aside, I'm doing an A/B on a paltry Panasonic CT-30WX15 between DirecTV and Evu. Evu makes Direc "HD" look like DVD. There has been a slow creep with Direc in downrezzing and bit starving that is REALLY noticable when you compare it on the same display.

SD has the same results. I'm sad. I've wasted a c-note a month on DirecTV for many years but knowing that vastly superior PQ is availabe for less has me wretching, I wanna puke.
EVU??
 
http://www.tvpredictions.com/directvlawsuit092006.htm

News
DIRECTV Sued Over
HDTV Picture Quality



Viewer claims the satcaster diluted the high-def picture after he signed up.
By Phillip Swann
Washington, D.C. (September 20, 2006) -- A DIRECTV subscriber has filed a class action lawsuit against the satcaster, claiming it reduced its High-Definition TV picture quality after he signed up for the service.

Peter Cohen, the subscriber, filed the lawsuit in November 2004. The complaint alleges that DIRECTV engaged in unlawful or fraudulent business practices by lowering its HDTV picture resolution in September 2004.

Cohen first signed up for DIRECTV's $10.99 monthly HDTV programming package in 2003. He says DIRECTV at that time promised that HDTV would provide "astonishing picture quality." However, he claims that DIRECTV broke that promise by lowering the picture quality in 2004.

DIRECTV spokesman Robert Mercer yesterday said the lawsuit was without merit.

"We believe the plaintiff’s underlying claims are completely without merit because DIRECTV’s High Definition service is high quality, true HD service under accepted definitions for satellite TV," Mercer said. "If it were otherwise, we doubt the plaintiff would continue to subscribe to and pay for DIRECTV HD programming."

Whether DIRECTV purposely squeezes the HD picture quality to create room for more channels has been a hot topic on Internet message boards for two years. The alleged practice has been dubbed DIRECTV's 'HD Lite.'

However, DIRECTV has consistently maintained that its high-def picture is comparable to or better than any other TV provider.

Cohen's class action lawsuit came to light this week when Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Peter Lichtman ruled against DIRECTV's motion to compel arbitration in the case.

Mercer said DIRECTV was "disappointed" in the judge's ruling and is now "evaluating our options in light of the ruling."

In the lawsuit, Cohen said that two months after he signed up for HDTV, DIRECTV sent him an amended customer agreement containing an arbitration clause. After he filed his lawsuit, DIRECTV filed the motion for arbitration.


Oh please.....For every offended schmuck there is a drooling plaintiff's attorney waiting to file his first class action suit...
This plaintiff isn't going to get sh*t..The attroneys will place ads nationwide looking for others to join the class...After the law firm signs up a few thousand people they will bring the suit...If the plaintiffs win, the plaintiffs won't get squat. Maybe a few dollars and an apology from the defendant..Meanwhile those attorneys will all be able to afford second homes in very pricey real estate markets...
Is it really worth it?....BTW the cost of the lawsuit is going to be passed on to whom?...That's right... The customers of DTV....where is the sense in all this?..
 
Oh I agree, I do see something coming of this, but I just have no good expectation it will be the best end result we all want. I just hope ha has a great lawyer that really read and knows that user agreement inside & out. Is this the exact claim they filled? It seems he is just going after the way they market it, not the product itself. Thoughts?

"Claim that DirecTV engaged in unlawful or fraudulent business practices by lowering its HDTV picture resolution in September 2004"
The plaintiff first must "prove" dtv lowered the resolution from the original.....Then he must prove that dtv did acted with negligence and with intent to harm...

Quite frankly i hope the plaintiff loses.....I am sick of these lawsuits... Because every time a jury hands out money like candy , the consumer loses, the attorneys make windfalls and nothing else changes..
This one IMO is without merit..The customer has a choice..If he is unhappy with the HD programaing he can simply unsubscribe from the HD portion of his subscription....The argument that "well I have this $4000 tv" doesn't wash.....
If the plaintiff cannot prove DTV acted negligently, he cannot prevail....The other subs of DTV will be better off for it..
 
The plaintiff first must "prove" dtv lowered the resolution from the original.....Then he must prove that dtv did acted with negligence and with intent to harm...

Quite frankly i hope the plaintiff loses.....I am sick of these lawsuits... Because every time a jury hands out money like candy , the consumer loses, the attorneys make windfalls and nothing else changes..
This one IMO is without merit..The customer has a choice..If he is unhappy with the HD programaing he can simply unsubscribe from the HD portion of his subscription....The argument that "well I have this $4000 tv" doesn't wash.....
If the plaintiff cannot prove DTV acted negligently, he cannot prevail....The other subs of DTV will be better off for it..

OK, lawyer here, and I can't let these comments mislead this discussion. Respectfully, you couldn't be more wrong on just about every point. The plaintiff here only has to prove that D* promised a certain level of PQ at the time he signed his commitment and D* then knowingly failed to meet that contractual obligation. I read the judge's order denying D*'s motion to dismiss (it was posted on avsforum, IIRC), and it explained that the plaintiff had claimed breach of contract and fraud, not negligence. FWIW, the legal claim of "negligence" (breach of duty of care causing injury) doesn't even make sense here. The plaintiff is not claiming that D* carelessly lowered its resolution! (Furthermore, negligence is exactly the opposite of "intent." Think about it.).

As for the lawyer bashing, I don't get it. Your gripe is more with your peers who comprise the jury pool, not the lawyers. The lawyers argue the case. If the jury concludes that it doesn't have merit, the plaintiff loses. The people themselves are the ultimate check-and-balance. Simple as that. Lawyers don't just walk up to a civil judgment ATM and get money, you know.

And if a plaintiff wins, how exactly does "the consumer" lose? In this case, if the plaintiff wins, either D* will be ordered to restore PQ to the level promised or the plaintiff(s) will be compensated for the difference between what he/they paid for and the diminished value of the service D* actually provided. That's the way the system is SUPPOSED to work.
 
The plaintiff first must "prove" dtv lowered the resolution from the original.....Then he must prove that dtv did acted with negligence and with intent to harm...

Quite frankly i hope the plaintiff loses.....I am sick of these lawsuits... Because every time a jury hands out money like candy , the consumer loses, the attorneys make windfalls and nothing else changes..
This one IMO is without merit..The customer has a choice..If he is unhappy with the HD programaing he can simply unsubscribe from the HD portion of his subscription....The argument that "well I have this $4000 tv" doesn't wash.....
If the plaintiff cannot prove DTV acted negligently, he cannot prevail....The other subs of DTV will be better off for it..


Not sure why you quoted / replied to me I was only asking if what was in quotes (below) was their actual claim; it was not my comment. I am agreement they will likely get nothing, but are trying to force something; maybe even a settled money-grab.


"Claim that DirecTV engaged in unlawful or fraudulent business practices by lowering its HDTV picture resolution in September 2004"
 
OK, lawyer here, and I can't let these comments mislead this discussion. Respectfully, you couldn't be more wrong on just about every point. The plaintiff here only has to prove that D* promised a certain level of PQ at the time he signed his commitment and D* then knowingly failed to meet that contractual obligation. I read the judge's order denying D*'s motion to dismiss (it was posted on avsforum, IIRC), and it explained that the plaintiff had claimed breach of contract and fraud, not negligence. FWIW, the legal claim of "negligence" (breach of duty of care causing injury) doesn't even make sense here. The plaintiff is not claiming that D* carelessly lowered its resolution! (Furthermore, negligence is exactly the opposite of "intent." Think about it.).

As for the lawyer bashing, I don't get it. Your gripe is more with your peers who comprise the jury pool, not the lawyers. The lawyers argue the case. If the jury concludes that it doesn't have merit, the plaintiff loses. The people themselves are the ultimate check-and-balance. Simple as that. Lawyers don't just walk up to a civil judgment ATM and get money, you know.

And if a plaintiff wins, how exactly does "the consumer" lose? In this case, if the plaintiff wins, either D* will be ordered to restore PQ to the level promised or the plaintiff(s) will be compensated for the difference between what he/they paid for and the diminished value of the service D* actually provided. That's the way the system is SUPPOSED to work.


The key word is here is "contractually"..Did the defendant offer in a contract to the consumer plaintiff a certain type (resolution) of hi def or is the costomer entitled to just a form of hi def.....On other words,what is in the contract? Is it full rezz or not?..If it isn't there, one leg just collapsed....the fact that you are posting on this thread indicates you have a bias here...
consmumers lose when companies that provide goods and services have to fork over mega settlements...The company then passes the loss on the consumer..Essentially a judgerment against the company(DTV) would be judgement against all of their customers.....The bottom line is plaintiffs don't like the big picture...They think only of themselves and their anticipated pay day....Something for nothing..Only in these class action suits( I see how you deftly avoided that part of my post in your response) the plainitffs get very little..It is the law firm that tried the case that scores the big one...IMO the laws regulating how classes are formed are far too lax..New regulations must be created to put a stop to this ripoff.....

Ok....Lets cut the BS.....
Customer: "Hey, my hi def picture doesn't look good"...
DTV..."we promised you hi defintion. you have hi def...
Customer:" it's not good enough..I'm suing"....

ten years later after briefs, motions ,changes in technology, counter motions ,more briefs..blah blah blah......The suit becomes moot because either the techonology to deliver hi def in full rezz is perfected ,or it hasn't......Nobody wins...nobody loses.....Who cares.....Its all crap..The customer who started this thing needs to find a hobby..and doesn't include looking at his 62" LCD with a maginifying glass....
Oh yeah..Lawyers who get bashed usually deserve it.....Wasn't it the ABA wanted the US Govt to pass a law essentially making criticism of attorneys a crime..Please.....The arrogance of these pricks to think they should be treated like they some kind of royalty. Screw them...
 
OK, lawyer here, and I can't let these comments mislead this discussion. Respectfully, you couldn't be more wrong on just about every point. The plaintiff here only has to prove that D* promised a certain level of PQ at the time he signed his commitment and D* then knowingly failed to meet that contractual obligation. I read the judge's order denying D*'s motion to dismiss (it was posted on avsforum, IIRC), and it explained that the plaintiff had claimed breach of contract and fraud, not negligence. FWIW, the legal claim of "negligence" (breach of duty of care causing injury) doesn't even make sense here. The plaintiff is not claiming that D* carelessly lowered its resolution! (Furthermore, negligence is exactly the opposite of "intent." Think about it.).

As for the lawyer bashing, I don't get it. Your gripe is more with your peers who comprise the jury pool, not the lawyers. The lawyers argue the case. If the jury concludes that it doesn't have merit, the plaintiff loses. The people themselves are the ultimate check-and-balance. Simple as that. Lawyers don't just walk up to a civil judgment ATM and get money, you know.

And if a plaintiff wins, how exactly does "the consumer" lose? In this case, if the plaintiff wins, either D* will be ordered to restore PQ to the level promised or the plaintiff(s) will be compensated for the difference between what he/they paid for and the diminished value of the service D* actually provided. That's the way the system is SUPPOSED to work.


I certainly don't agree with all of what dishcomm has said but in his defense, he is right about how business works, business losses affect everyone, including the plaintiffs if D* loses and has to pay $$$$$$$. This would be a loss to the stock holders, the salaried employees and the customer base as the monetary settlements would be made from gross revenues as a cost of doing business.

So how might the plaintiff win? Hopefully the court will define what constitutes HDTV for the consumer. The problem, as I have stated before, is not about monikers of HDTV, or "HDTV lite", but actually what is considered industry practice for HDTV. The plaintiffs, I believe are being quite unreasonable in one specification in their complaint / case. This would be the demand for 1920 pixels since that specification, considered to be the upper limit for ATSC 1080i horizontal specification to maintain channel bandwidth, is mostly unattainable with today's HDTV acquisition and distribution system. It is limited to 1440 pixels by infrastructure. IF a case is won that demands 1920 pixels, we will see one of two possible outcomes. 1. the defendant will be forced to shut off all HDTV 1080i transmissions until / unless it can be supplied in the required 1920 pixel format.
2. Fool the content test methods by artificially boosting the H pixel count from 1440 to 1920 but this actually just generates video noise and adds bandwidth in the transmission without picture content.

In case #1. there have been recent technology developments which allow HDTV field acquisition and distribution to the full 1920 pixel count but being recent developments, is not yet a part of the infra structure for HDTV broadcast. There are just too many traditional HD technology (1440 pixel ) recording systems in place. IMO, demanding the full 1920 is unreasonable based on present day state of the art.

Secondly, the monitors used by consumers do not resolve 1920 pixels except for the latest 1080p which also are not common in households or the HDTV subscribers of D* HDTV channels.

Dishcomm is correct in that the H resolution is not guaranteed by D*, Only that "HDTV" is and IF D* can show that it supplies HDTV by state of the art common industry standards, I believe it will win. I would be surprised because independent tests of their signals show it does not.

However, having said that, I have to state that if the case can demonstrate the actual tested signals being sent by D* HDTV channels they will show that D* has further restricted the industry standard of 1440 pixels to less than 500 pixels in some cases and this, is most likely what the Plaintiffs are referencing as picture quality reduction. I would hope that the Plaitiffs would back off the stiff demands of 1920, agree that meeting the industry state of the art standard of 1440 is a minimum HDTV pixel count for 1080i version and be able to make the case that D* has reduced their quality to well below that. This would make for a very strong case as the tests to verify the reduction are not that difficult to run.


Some additional technical reminders-
1080i is interlaced format and was set by the ATSC to accomodate, analog scan line monitors, not digital pixel based monitors. The common native resolution of pixel based monitors are 720p by 1280. As such, all HDTV signals must be reduced to this native resolution for display! While 1080p x 1920 monitors are just now becoming wide spread in the stores, the only format that fully supports these monitor's native resolution is bluRay and HDDVD. There are no 1080p broadcasts permitted as they do not fit the licensed bandwidth limits.
When 1080i is converted to progressive for display native on a 720P monitor, it is at 540P, not 1080i. This is just math on the conversion and not some secret conspiracy. Under laboratory conditions, a CRT can be made to display a full res test to 1080i x 1920 lines but these lab conditions do not represent ideal viewing brightness for good picture quality. Instead the beam width must be broadened to give good picture and this limits the resolution to between 1100 and 1300 lines. Again, the monitors do not display the full 1920.

At the end of the day, the demands of the HD lite fighters for 1920 is not only too aggressive but technically without practical merrit. I fight for good HD PQ and for me, it would be a minimum of 720P x 1280 pixels or 1080i x 1440 pixels with a bandwidth of no less than 15 Mbps. If the plaintiffs sued for this minimum standard, I think they would have made an excellent case and everybody would be blown away with the improvement. D* may have to shut down a few HDTV channels since their TP count would not handle this minimum I have suggested. But what remained, would be of superb quality, that would maximize everone's monitors native resolution.
 
Frankly who cares? It means nothing.:D
Only those who MUST have the latest and greatest bells and whisles known to man kind...
I do not care about these people
..If they went out and spent mega bucks on tv's and sat EQ assuming there would be a picture on every HD channel that gave them sexual arousal, that is their problem for not doing their homework...
I knew about HD a long time ago..Nowhere did I see any promise from any provider that there always would be a full resolution picture..
This lawsuit crap really pisses me off..This is exactly why this country needs tort reform and needs it fast..
 
Frankly who cares? It means nothing.:D

The suit may not have any solid grounds, as I know my paperwork with D* states nothing about any resolution on HD they supply me, but, maybe the person filing the suit has different paperwork, than I do.

Millions of us do care about the resolution of our HD signals, and want to receive the highest possible resolution available. After shelling out thousands of dollars for HDTVs and home theater systems, we DO CARE.
 
The key word is here is "contractually"..Did the defendant offer in a contract to the consumer plaintiff a certain type (resolution) of hi def or is the costomer entitled to just a form of hi def.....On other words,what is in the contract? Is it full rezz or not?..If it isn't there, one leg just collapsed....the fact that you are posting on this thread indicates you have a bias here...

Actually, that's exactly what this plaintiff is claiming. That D*'s own advertising materials and receiver manuals trumpeted 1920X1080 resolution, and that the plaintiff relied on those representations when making his financial decision to purchase the D*'s HD equipment and package versus the services offered by other providers. Again, I urge you to read the court's order, which lays this all out.

consmumers lose when companies that provide goods and services have to fork over mega settlements...

No, the customers win. The shareholders lose. Big difference.

The company then passes the loss on the consumer..Essentially a judgerment against the company(DTV) would be judgement against all of their customers.....The bottom line is plaintiffs don't like the big picture...They think only of themselves and their anticipated pay day....Something for nothing..

Again, how do you figure that? If D* promised a certain level of service and then did not provide it, the plaintiff is shortchanged and is due to be made whole. That's not "something for nothing." That's simply demanding the benefit you bargained for.

Only in these class action suits( I see how you deftly avoided that part of my post in your response) the plainitffs get very little..It is the law firm that tried the case that scores the big one...IMO the laws regulating how classes are formed are far too lax..New regulations must be created to put a stop to this ripoff.....

You (as a non-lawyer, nothing personal) have no idea what you're talking about. Name one "law" regulating how classes are formed. You can't. You're using BS layman's assumptions about a topic you know nothing about to support your opinion, which isn't based on any objective facts. Besides, I didn't "deftly" avoid your class action comments. I did so purposely because this case has not been certified by the court as a class action (yet), so that point is irrelevant at the moment. But even if it is, the court will impose guidelines regarding who qualifies as class members, and even has the option of making it either an opt-in class or an opt-out class. All those questions still remain to be decided.

Ok....Lets cut the BS.....
Customer: "Hey, my hi def picture doesn't look good"...
DTV..."we promised you hi defintion. you have hi def...
Customer:" it's not good enough..I'm suing"....

I refer you back to my comment above. The claims asserted are a lot more complicated than a subjective complaint about PQ brought in the guise of a lawsuit. The plaintiff is claiming breach of contract and fraud, two well established legal causes of action.

ten years later after briefs, motions ,changes in technology, counter motions ,more briefs..blah blah blah......The suit becomes moot because either the techonology to deliver hi def in full rezz is perfected ,or it hasn't......Nobody wins...nobody loses.....Who cares.....Its all crap..The customer who started this thing needs to find a hobby..and doesn't include looking at his 62" LCD with a maginifying glass....

More empty, uninformed rhetoric.

Oh yeah..Lawyers who get bashed usually deserve it.....Wasn't it the ABA wanted the US Govt to pass a law essentially making criticism of attorneys a crime..Please.....The arrogance of these pricks to think they should be treated like they some kind of royalty. Screw them...

Who's the one with the agenda? You or the plaintiff? There are plenty of facially meritless suits out there brough by absolute embarassments of attorneys. This, IMO, is not one of them. Obviously, by denying D*'s preliminary motion to dismiss, the court agreed.

I don't know how to separate individual quotes. I hope you were able to follow my responses.
 
The suit may not have any solid grounds, as I know my paperwork with D* states nothing about any resolution on HD they supply me, but, maybe the person filing the suit has different paperwork, than I do.

Millions of us do care about the resolution of our HD signals, and want to receive the highest possible resolution available. After shelling out thousands of dollars for HDTVs and home theater systems, we DO CARE.
"hioghest resolution possible''..That's the key right there....Possible...Did it occur to anyone that available bandwidth plus the mpeg 4 compression is preventing full rezz?....Doesn't seem so...I have heard suggestions that the satcos drop programming to make room for HD in full rezz...sounds rather selfish to me...
If anyone went out and "shelled out thousands of dollars for HDTV's and home theatre systems" without doing their homework, that's their problem....
This is verbatim form the DTV site...."The DIRECTV HD Receiver will transform the way you watch television with the crispest, highest–quality picture possible".....
"10 times the pixels of ordinary TV — clearer pictures, more vibrant colors and wider images"

Neither of the above statements implies or promises full resolution HD.....The words CLEARER and POSSIBLE are surely open to interpretation but do not appear to promise any level of resolution..
 
Respectfully, this has nothing to do with "tort reform." A tort is an action based upon alleged negligence, like if the installer burned down your house while putting up your new AT-9 dish.

This is a contract action based, quite simply, on the assertion that D* advertised and promised something it did not deliver. D* did not have to make all those extravagant claims, and it probably would have sold the product anyway. But, once it did, it should deliver what it said it would, and it did not.

In this case, I'm not sure how you would figure how the claimants were actually damaged, but there seems to be little question that D* is not delivering "the highest resolution available."

Based upon my expectations, if you told me that, I'd expect a 1920x1080 signal, whether my TV could resolve it or not (I might want to buy a TV which could if I had the signals to go with it).

My problem with the whole thing is how this discussion highlights the questions about "what is HD?" in the first place, and when someone says "1080i or 720p" just how many lines is that?

To me, that's what the suit is all about.

One of the beauties of the american system is that the judge is the one who decides if a claim has merit, not a bunch of internet posters who have no legal training or understanding of what the claimant is complaining about.

This suit just says "You claimed I was getting something you did not give me."

Why would anyone have a problem with that? (In Texas, and many other states, we also have a statute allowing claims based upon alleged "false, misleading or deceptive acts or trade practices" which is one of the few laws which actually gives an ordinary consumer a chance against a big corporation. My personal opinion is that D* would be toast if you tried a case under the Deceptive Trade Practices Act. All you'd have to do would be to compare D* with Verizon FIOS and rest your case)
 
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RadRabbit

I stopped the service. That didn't cure the situation, but it made me feel better and saved bucks.
 
So how might the plaintiff win? Hopefully the court will define what constitutes HDTV for the consumer. The problem, as I have stated before, is not about monikers of HDTV, or "HDTV lite", but actually what is considered industry practice for HDTV. The plaintiffs, I believe are being quite unreasonable in one specification in their complaint / case. This would be the demand for 1920 pixels since that specification, considered to be the upper limit for ATSC 1080i horizontal specification to maintain channel bandwidth, is mostly unattainable with today's HDTV acquisition and distribution system. It is limited to 1440 pixels by infrastructure. IF a case is won that demands 1920 pixels, we will see one of two possible outcomes. 1. the defendant will be forced to shut off all HDTV 1080i transmissions until / unless it can be supplied in the required 1920 pixel format.

The big problem here is that the TV manufacturers call a lot of different resolutions HDTV. The vast majority are not even 1080 lines, almost none are 1920 pixels-wide, and nobody has challenged that those are not HD TV's. Any court declaration against D* would last about 15 seconds before an appeal was filed on behalf of Sony, Toshiba, Hitachi, etc..... D* or E* would not even have to be parties to the appeal.

This is a dead-end case.
 
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