Deal with NPS to "save" distants on DISH!

[navychop]

"...But they cannot do it with ANY type of relationship with Echostar. Period...."


That's the point. They CAN'T as a practical matter do it any other way. D* would not "normally" give up some of their transponder space to a competitor providing duplicate programming. Starting up like Voom did, with a satellite and allocations, requiring customers to get yet another dish and receiver, etc- well, that's a non-starter. An adverse ruling by the judge on this would punish someone who was not a party to the original action, nor a party to any wrongdoing, and effectively grant D* a monopoly on the nationwide provision of DNS. Cablecos don't do that. Far beyond the mandate by Congress for remedy under the law.

 

[dishrich]

NPS doesn't have its own license. It is the exact same license that DirecTV and Dish Network use today.

Hmm, hang on a sec here Greg, are you sure it's EXACTLY the same for NPS?
There IS one difference that I see. When the SHVIRA was "improved" a couple years ago, one of the additions to it was that if a DBS carrier ALREADY served a particular DMA w/LIL service, that same carrier could NOT offer distants of those same networks if it was part of the LIL service, in ANY part of that same DMA, white area of NOT. Since NPS offers NO LIL service, they actually now have MORE freedom to offer distant nets, since now they can offer it to ANY white area whatsoever, LIL served by "another DBS carrier" or NOT.

Assuming this actually DOES fly, (which BTW, I gotta agree with you that I don't think it will) NPS will actually be able to (legally) offer distant nets to even MORE subs than E* (legally) could. The local networks could actually end up loosing MORE viewers in this senario than they did w/E* & it's "illegal" subs.

 

[Robert NTSC Archivist]

Does this company have a generic web site up and running I am just interested in seeing what other channels they offer even if they are not going to be on Dish Network. . . ?

Bob

 

[db2]

If I remember correctly E* was providing (and charging for) DNS signals before they had permission to do so. As a result (and as punishment) the court ruled that they could no longer offer these signals or charge for them.

The way it is set up now 1) Dish network is no longer providing these signals and 2) they are not charging for them

So I don't see anything wrong with this situation. Seems pretty black and white to me.

 

[ti_yn]

Exactly after all the oprigonal idea for DNS was to offer the master feeds from NY and LA that carry the entire network line up and do not preempt some programing.

While that might make the most sense from a consumer's point of view, NY and LA weren't where all of the networks were offered from until Dish and DirecTV started uplinking them in the late '90s, following rulings against PT24.

PT24 seems to have a habit of carrying affiliates which are notorious for pre-empting network shows. Who knows, maybe it's their way of most accurately replicating substandard local affiliates to the people who cannot receive their designated ones over the air. Didn't they actually use KPIX as a "west" feed while that station was running primetime an hour earlier than normal?

Meanwhile, I once heard that some of the network stations Primestar carried were picked based on connections with the cable compaines that owned the service. Cox's KTVU, for example.

I'm not sure why Atlanta and SF are the new choices, but to me, it's not a bad idea at all, as San Francisco stations are something I've wanted for a long time. Years ago, I actually considered Primestar solely because they offered KTVU. Granted, I probably could have gotten SF for a short time back when they first went up on E* LIL, but I didn't have the money to spend at the time. Now if this works out and I qualify, I can finally have it all (relatively). Well, except for KRON. I just have to open a D* account if I want to keep LA & NY.

Anyway, for reference, Atlanta's FOX station is an O&O.

Apologies if this is slightly off topic, but does anyone remember if and how KTVU and KRON's newscasts were once carried, in the clear, on C-Band? Sometime in the late '90s, I'm sure I remember seeing in one of the published satellite guides, that KTVU's 10:00 and KRON's 11:00 PM newscasts were carried as wild feeds on the same transponder. Just wondering if anyone can confirm this, and explain who uplinked them, and when and why it was done?. Well, as for why, they were, at the time, possibly the two best newscasts in the country.
_________________________
Let the NTSC archiving live on!

 

[EJMCOL]

This is where your argument breaks down. E* is not transmitting the DNS nor is it receivng revenue from the transmission of DNS.......

Wrong, E* is in fact getting paid for the lease of its transponders for purposes of broadcast of DNS. That is what violates the court's Order.

If NPS wants to lease transponder space and put up HBO, for example, it can do so. But it cannot broadcast DNS over an E* asset while E* is getting monetary compensation in the process, regardless how roundabout the scenario. There are many different factual scenarios which might constitute de facto "in concert" status under the law, but the existence of a contractual arrangement providing for monetary compensation is a no-brainer.

Seriously, this scheme is so blatant that Ergen might find himself jailed for contempt for deliberately scheming to circumvent the court's order.

 

[Robert NTSC Archivist]

When I first got Dish in May 1998 living in Norfolk Virginia. They offered a feed called NBC America and NBC America West entertaining America by Satellite. They carried the local LA and NY feeds but the comericals were all different and there were no plugs for KNBC and WNBC. I new that it was KNBC as I am from Los Angeles and new the news casters. They also offered a CBS station from Cleveland and and San Francisco at the time. I remember getting ABC I think from Seattle, FOX from LA and FOXNET for the east coast feed. I think ABC was from New York. Am I imagining this. I know the Seattle station was there as I lived in the Pacific Northwest for two years.


Bob

 

[dishrich]

Didn't they actually use KPIX as a "west" feed while that station was running primetime an hour earlier than normal?

Sure did - used to watch it all the time. But actually, KPIX went back to running PT like the other west coast networks after trying it out for a year or 2. Unfortunately, right after they switched back, PT24 took ALL of the west coast networks down.

Apologies if this is slightly off topic, but does anyone remember if and how KTVU and KRON's newscasts were once carried, in the clear, on C-Band? Sometime in the late '90s, I'm sure I remember seeing in one of the published satellite guides, that KTVU's 10:00 and KRON's 11:00 PM newscasts were carried as wild feeds on the same transponder. Just wondering if anyone can confirm this, and explain who uplinked them, and when and why it was done?. Well, as for why, they were, at the time, possibly the two best newscasts in the country.

I used to watch them as well - they were both uplinked by CNN's SF news bureau - most likely to relay SF/west coast stories back to Atlanta.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

Wrong, E* is in fact getting paid for the lease of its transponders for purposes of braodcast of DNS. That is what violates the court's Order.

No so.

Dish is leasing a transponder. NPS is leasing a transponder. NPS is putting up signal to sell to their (NPS's) customers. Dish is getting paid RENT on the transponder no matter if NPS has one customer or a million, and no matter what NPS puts on that transponder.

Its no different then you going to your local cable company and buying space on their leased access channels then running ads for Satellite TV. Its your time you paid for it, you can run what you want on it as long as its legal. And NPS is legally selling distant network services as it has been doing for YEARS. Just now however they are going to gain a large number of folks who are Dish Network customers as well (as they are going to gain Sky Angel Customers)

Smart business move from NPS and all LEGAL!

 

[BigFella]

IF this does fly (and I hope it does) and IF I do qualify (OTA is not available to me but local nets are via SAT and Cable), how would this work technically speaking for the typical consumer - Let me preface my questions with the fact that I don't have Sky Angel, so I don't know how a subscription works with them combined with a Dish subsrciption (assuming an NPS subscription will work the same way as SA):

1. Will I need a seperate Dish receiver (one for Dish programming and a seperate receiver for NPS programming?
2. Assuming a seperate receiver is not required, will the NPS programming show up in my EPG?
3. Assuming NPS programming will show up in my EPG, will I be able to use all of the PVR functions (scheduling timers in particular) that I use with Dish programming

 

[Tampa8]

Wrong, E* is in fact getting paid for the lease of its transponders for purposes of braodcast of DNS. That is what violates the court's Order.

If NPS wants to lease transponder space and put up HBO, for example, it can do so. But it cannot broadcast DNS over an E* asset while E* is getting monetary compensation in the process, regardless how roundabout the scenario.

That is an area where some of us disagree. The leasing of the space to an independant company would not be against the court order. That company selling distants to anyone - not just Dish subscribers - would not be against the order.

To rephrase an example I gave - A Direct TV subscriber keeps his subscription. He/She buys a used Dish receiver, buys the distants from NPS. How is that against the court order? Ok, now that person decides to get HBO/MAX from Dish, still keeping his Direct TV, and keeping his NPS distants. Don't see where this should make any difference. You would be saying the Court somehow can now dictate what a private company can sell, who has a license to do so and has been doing it for years legally. The connection of getting money for leasing space to another company, and what that company sells should not be against the court order. It is not Dish selling or providing the distants, and the distants are being sold to anyone who qualifies, not to Dish subscribers only.

I will go one step further - I'm not so sure had this arrangement been thought of out of necessity now, that Dish would not have conteplated doing this way before now. I'm not at all convinced Dish (Or Direct) makes any real money on selling distants. It's more of a service. In fact, offering locals may not be all that lucrative, but needed to keep subscribers. If NPS offered all cities, who knows if Dish would not have gone that route too.

 

[dishrich]

They also offered a CBS station from Cleveland and and San Francisco at the time.

The east feed was never from Cleveland, but from different cities over the years - Chicago, then Erie, PA (YUCK!). There might have been another city in-between these two, but Cleveland was never one.

I remember getting ABC I think from Seattle, FOX from LA and FOXNET for the east coast feed. I think ABC was from New York. Am I imagining this. I know the Seattle station was there as I lived in the Pacific Northwest for two years.

They NEVER had a west coast FOX feed, but the east feed was Chicago, then Miami, THEN FoxNet.

The west ABC was always Seattle, but the east ABC was NY, then Nashville, then back to NY.

You can STILL get the PT24 east feeds on a C-band 4DTV - the networks are ABC & NBC from NY & CBS (still) from Erie, PA.

 

[Greg Bimson]

Greg you don't get it do you?

I get it just fine. But let's see if you understand.

NPS can uplink whatever they want to the tranponder. They have decided that they will uplink Distant Networks, which they can do.

Not so fast. Because NPS is now acting in active concert with Dish Network, they will be prohibited from using the distant network license because of the injunction.

And also Dish can sub lease transponders under the license they have from the FCC.

But I believe Dish Network must get FCC approval to lease the transponder to NPS. As quickly as this was done, I am unsure if this went through FCC approval.

Again if SkyAngel wanted to do distant networks they could as well.

Only if they are not working in active concert with Dish Network.

E* is not transmitting the DNS nor is it receivng revenue from the transmission of DNS.

But they are receiving money for leasing the transponder. Because NPS is working in active concert with Dish Network (renting transponder space), the relationship is there to bar NPS from using the distant network license on anything relating to their agreement with Dish Network.

You do realize a business transaction that allows another party to provide what the original party cannot provide is considered "in active concert or participation with Echostar"?

 

[Greg Bimson]

A Direct TV subscriber keeps his subscription. He/She buys a used Dish receiver, buys the distants from NPS. How is that against the court order?

OK. I'll bite.

That specifically is not against the court order. However, NPS would not legally be allowed to sell distants because they are in participation with Echostar.

 

[BabaLouie]

IF this does fly (and I hope it does) and IF I do qualify (OTA is not available to me but local nets are via SAT and Cable), how would this work technically speaking for the typical consumer - Let me preface my questions with the fact that I don't have Sky Angel, so I don't know how a subscription works with them combined with a Dish subsrciption (assuming an NPS subscription will work the same way as SA):

1. Will I need a seperate Dish receiver (one for Dish programming and a seperate receiver for NPS programming?
2. Assuming a seperate receiver is not required, will the NPS programming show up in my EPG?
3. Assuming NPS programming will show up in my EPG, will I be able to use all of the PVR functions (scheduling timers in particular) that I use with Dish programming

I'm a Sky Angel sub. My Sky Angel programming comes through the same box as my Dish programming, and shows up in the same EPG. I would assume it would work the same with NPS programming.

 

[Foxbat]

Okay, let me toss this out: Couldn't NPS lease a transponder from News Corp (dba DirecTV) at 119 and provide a bit stream that was compatible with the Dish-branded receivers and their encryption service? Let's say (for sake of argument) that this happened. DirecTV gets a cut of Dish Subscribers that lost Distant Networks and NPS gets some new subs for their service.

Also, what would happen if Echostar sold NPS one of their xponder licenses at 119? Would that represent "acting in concert" or would that license still be viewed as an Echostar asset because it happened to be broadcast on an Echostar satellite?

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

Because NPS is now acting in active concert with Dish Network, they will be prohibited from using the distant network license.

No they are not NPS can run whatever they want on the transponder. Its like if I rented you an appartment, if you wanted to sit inside naked eating HoHo's and playing XBOX all day you could, I being the landloard wouldnt like it nor the thought of having you on my propery naked eating hohos playing video games, but it is your right as the renter.

But I believe Dish Network must get FCC approval to lease the transponder to NPS. As quickly as this was done, I am unsure if this went through FCC approval.

Nope, Dish leases transponders all the time, as do other companies including DirecTV, no FCC Approval is needed.
You can keep ringing in with the in concert crap all day, but in reality its all legit and legal, and Dish Network is no longer selling distant networks.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

Okay, let me toss this out: Couldn't NPS lease a transponder from News Corp (dba DirecTV) at 119 and provide a bit stream that was compatible with the Dish-branded receivers and their encryption service? Let's say (for sake of argument) that this happened. DirecTV gets a cut of Dish Subscribers that lost Distant Networks and NPS gets some new subs for their service.

Yes they could. In fact DirecTV could do the same thing.

 

[rockymtnhigh]

I can easily see a court saying this violates the spirit of their decision; but without knowing the technicalities of the law in question, it is hard to say if they would stop it.

If they would only start distributing HD network feeds, then I would be happier than a puppy with two peters.....

Hell, I'd spend $20/month for east and west coast HD feeds....

 

[Robert NTSC Archivist]

Thats right Erie PA seems to ringa bell. I remember watching a NASCAR race on CBS and they lost there feed for like an hour. I could be wrong about a west coast FOX feed but at least I was spot on about the other ones.

Crazy how they kept changing them back then. You would figure that Dish could find a way to up link a west coast UPN or MY( (WWOR) network feed as well.

Bob