You might be sol on this one, if they have the contract signed. I know after reading a few bbb complaints, they state that because it is electronic, it doesn't track as fast. They also will state that there is a box you can check to have your signature transposed to the different areas. Not having one of the devices to see the process, this is all based on the bbb complaints I have read. As far as the reading, it may come down to you putting your name on that first signature, and the language written into it. If something was there, and you signed and agreed to it, legally you would be on the hook for the ETF.
considering switching from Direct to Dish
- Thread starter Mo Fly
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Now we're approaching the edges of paranoia. If your not comfortable with email, then send a copy via USPS/FedEx/etc, or post to a site you can share securely by providing them a password, etc.
If your signature was forged, you had a bad dealer and/or tech. Now your dealing with someone who can get it fixed and you won't provide a sample of your real signature for comparison. If I were the person on the Dish end of the conversation, I would write you off as someone just trying to get out of what they owe. If you want to avoid the headaches of collections, you will need to work with them.
after reading his last few posts I am thinking this.
if he signed up with corporate dish there is a recording of the phone calls.
cant speak for 3rd party outfits.
Bottom line is that I was NEVER presented with any written contract to read, much less to agree to. I don't see anything paranoid about not being willing to trust a company any further, when they not only forged a phony signature to a contract I had never seen AND THEN attempted to charge a large and illegitimate sum of money to my Amex credit card, WITHOUT my knowledge or permission. Both acts constitute criminal activity, IMHO.
They haven't made any further attempts to "collect" anything from me, since I made it clear I would not cave into criminal fraud tactics about money I have never owed them. Should they ever attempt to go further, I will be happy to file criminal complaints against that company.
Anyway, thanks much for listening. I deeply appreciate the variety of comments in response; all of them have been helpful.
They haven't made any further attempts to "collect" anything from me, since I made it clear I would not cave into criminal fraud tactics about money I have never owed them. Should they ever attempt to go further, I will be happy to file criminal complaints against that company.
Anyway, thanks much for listening. I deeply appreciate the variety of comments in response; all of them have been helpful.
The authorization would have been the hold you allowed them to place on the card at sign up. Read the BBB. Many have tried. Very very few have succeeded and those few only because they could prove it was not their signature nor anyone in the houses signature(name spelled wrong, etc)
I never gave them a right to put a hold on my credit card. I allowed only the one initial $30 charge for the installation fee, and I did that by giving the telephone salesman my card number over the telephone. I never authorized any subsequent charges to any credit card after that and I always paid the amount that I had agreed to each month, by sending them an online banking check.
I will attempt to read BBB complaints, if I can find them with a Google search. If anyone has a link for that lying around, without having to go to a lot of trouble, it will be appreciated.
Thanks,
"12469 complaints closed with BBB in last 3 years..."
Thanks much for that link. I spent over a half hour just reading the first page of complaints against Dish, with 2304 more pages to go. It is mind boggling that the same kind of complaints are repeated over and over and over. And, their usual boiler plate responses which rarely, if ever, adequately compensates their customers for the horrors they have been put thru, just because they wanted to have some TV channels to watch.
Another link which others might also want to look at:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/cable_tv/dish_network.html
One excerpt, which notes the sneaky "reset" problem that catches most of them because the sales/service persons don't warn customers that any changes will "reset" the date, beyond which they won't have to pay early cancellation fees, if they choose to cancel their Dish service:
"Well, 2 months later when I went to cancel my service because I was moving they told me my account had been reset when I ordered that extra receiver in the spare bedroom and that I would owe a 22 month early cancellation fee of $235. I was never told that when you add a service that they restart your active date to the beginning. When I called Dish they told me that it's in that fine print of the contract and that they aren't responsible that I didn't read the contract completely."
GOTCHA! Not the kind of customer policy employed by ethical businesses, IMHO.
If you read the denials, it's great. The reason people get denied, is for not reading the contract. Dish does multiple things. They read disclosures disclosing the contract. They send you an email giving you details of said contract when placing the order. They give you the chance to read all documentation online at mydish.com/legal and they email a copy of the signed agreement after install. At that point, it is up to the customers due diligence to know what they were getting into. Dish offered 3 backups even if the sales rep didn't read off all disclosures.
Nevertheless, it still amounts to a deliberate GOTCHA marketing policy, because Dish KNOWS that most people will not realize what all that hoop-jumping really means: That they will extend the cancel-without-draconian penalties date, with only the slightest change or excuse, and that it will cost the customer a bunch more money, that most don't realize will eventually be imposed.
WHY does dish automatically extend that date, when any change is made to the contract? What moral reason can justify their doing so? None that I can see. It's just a way of gouging the customer in a manner that he won't know he's being gouged until it is too late.
With TENS OF THOUSANDS OF COMPLAINTS over many years on that very issue, WHY do they continue to extend the no-penalty cancellation date, when there is no good reason for doing so, OTHER THAN to hide the Real Cost of their services and eventually gouge the hell out of their customers?
Contracts which have draconian penalties for early cancellation, have them for one reason: As a means of HIDING THE REAL COST of the services that the customer wants to buy. It is a policy of DELIBERATE DECEPTION of the customer, as to what it will actually cost them in the long run.
Both Dish & Direct TV have created a host of steps, variations, exceptions, in the form of many complex clauses and subclauses in their contracts, which would force even a sophisticated lawyer to take some real time to figure out the ultimate, bottom line costs of their services.
That is quite deliberate and is structured that way because they INTEND to deceive potential customers about the actual charges they will incur, if they decide to sign up with either of those companies.
Not the way ethical businesses operate, IMHO.
"Dish Network Settles Deceptive Practices Charges With 46 State Attorney Generals."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/16/dish-network-settles-dece_n_236478.html
"The U.S. Federal Trade Commission is suing Dish Network Corp, accusing the satellite television provider of violating telemarketing rules by calling millions of customers who had asked not to be contacted by the company."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/23/ftc-dish-do-not-call_n_1825742.html
WHY does dish automatically extend that date, when any change is made to the contract? What moral reason can justify their doing so? None that I can see. It's just a way of gouging the customer in a manner that he won't know he's being gouged until it is too late.
With TENS OF THOUSANDS OF COMPLAINTS over many years on that very issue, WHY do they continue to extend the no-penalty cancellation date, when there is no good reason for doing so, OTHER THAN to hide the Real Cost of their services and eventually gouge the hell out of their customers?
Contracts which have draconian penalties for early cancellation, have them for one reason: As a means of HIDING THE REAL COST of the services that the customer wants to buy. It is a policy of DELIBERATE DECEPTION of the customer, as to what it will actually cost them in the long run.
Both Dish & Direct TV have created a host of steps, variations, exceptions, in the form of many complex clauses and subclauses in their contracts, which would force even a sophisticated lawyer to take some real time to figure out the ultimate, bottom line costs of their services.
That is quite deliberate and is structured that way because they INTEND to deceive potential customers about the actual charges they will incur, if they decide to sign up with either of those companies.
Not the way ethical businesses operate, IMHO.
"Dish Network Settles Deceptive Practices Charges With 46 State Attorney Generals."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/16/dish-network-settles-dece_n_236478.html
"The U.S. Federal Trade Commission is suing Dish Network Corp, accusing the satellite television provider of violating telemarketing rules by calling millions of customers who had asked not to be contacted by the company."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/23/ftc-dish-do-not-call_n_1825742.html
It's not any change. If you upgrade equipment(this is standard for almost all telecommunications including cell phones) then you will have a contract to pay for the money it costs them to upgrade. It's a simple trade off. Of you purchase the equipment, rather then lease it, then no commitment, but typically you will spend more than leasing, even if you were to cancel on day one. An upgrade is a max of $240 that is reduced by $10 per month of the commitment completed. The typical upgrade costs dish over $600. The commitment is a means to recover some of the cost it takes to fulfill the upgrade.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. I have never seen Dish extend anyone's contract unless they did an equipment upgrade of some sort. Now DirecTV would extend customer's contracts any time they swapped out a receiver without the customer knowing. Now that's sleazy.
I certainly agree with the description of "sleazy." I think that description applies to the business model, marketing schemes, and sales tactics of BOTH of those companies, as it does to the campaign tactics of the vast majority of politicians.
Just the OPPOSITE of the models, sales/refund policies of companies like Costco and Walmart.
Just the OPPOSITE of the models, sales/refund policies of companies like Costco and Walmart.
Costco I can see praising, but Walmart? They pay their employees just little enough that they qualify for government assistance, and then those employees spend their paychecks at Walmart because that is the only place they can afford to buy things. Walmart is the ultimate welfare queen. They might have a liberal return policy, but they are far from "the OPPOSITE of" sleazy.
That sounds like the usual Labor Union Propaganda against Walmart.
My favorable comments about BOTH companies is related to my being a regular customer of BOTH companies for over 15 years. I have never had a case with either company refusing to refund my money on any product I purchased from them, if I decided it was proper to return for refund. Try THAT with Dish Network!!
There is no doubt that Walmart and Costco have very different business models, when it comes to where they locate, to whom they offer their products, their methods of packaging (bulk, large quantity sizes, vs small, individual sizes), as well as who they are willing to hire and what they pay their employees.
The reason why Walmart is the largest retailer in the world and has many more stores all over the world, than does Costco, is precisely because they are dedicated to serving the poorer members of the human race, that cannot afford to buy from companies like Costco, which rarely is located within the reach of poorer communities, let along providing sizes, quantities and prices that they can afford.
Trying to fill the needs of various market niches, is what Free-Market Capitalism is all about, and so long as those who manufacture, move to market, advertise and sell their products, without engaging in force, fraud or outright violence (which IS a rather common marketing model of Labor Unions), then I could care less what they pay their employees.
If the employees are free to apply for, work for and then leave for better climes, as they freely choose, then no one has any moral or political right to dictate to any investors what their employees should be paid.
If the employees of Walmart are so underpaid, how come Walmart usually receives hundreds of applications for each job opening? It would seem to me the ones that are the MOST underpaid, are those without any jobs at all because of all the laws, regulations, taxes imposed by those who CLAIM to be so concerned for the poor, while they consistently support govt policies which keep so many poor "in their place," and out of any jobs at all, so to speak.
And, if Costco is such a stellar organization, why don't they open stores in many of the poorest areas, like Walmart does, and then pay new, untrained employees, who often have to be taught remedial reading, math, etc., as much as they pay much better qualified employees, in their much more prosperous economic areas, in which Costco usually locates?
Anyone who knows anything about the economics of successful retailing knows that they don't because they would have a constant negative bottom line at such stores. I am confident that Costco figured that out too, a long time ago.
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/...14/applications-pour-in-for-d-c-walmart-jobs/
My favorable comments about BOTH companies is related to my being a regular customer of BOTH companies for over 15 years. I have never had a case with either company refusing to refund my money on any product I purchased from them, if I decided it was proper to return for refund. Try THAT with Dish Network!!
There is no doubt that Walmart and Costco have very different business models, when it comes to where they locate, to whom they offer their products, their methods of packaging (bulk, large quantity sizes, vs small, individual sizes), as well as who they are willing to hire and what they pay their employees.
The reason why Walmart is the largest retailer in the world and has many more stores all over the world, than does Costco, is precisely because they are dedicated to serving the poorer members of the human race, that cannot afford to buy from companies like Costco, which rarely is located within the reach of poorer communities, let along providing sizes, quantities and prices that they can afford.
Trying to fill the needs of various market niches, is what Free-Market Capitalism is all about, and so long as those who manufacture, move to market, advertise and sell their products, without engaging in force, fraud or outright violence (which IS a rather common marketing model of Labor Unions), then I could care less what they pay their employees.
If the employees are free to apply for, work for and then leave for better climes, as they freely choose, then no one has any moral or political right to dictate to any investors what their employees should be paid.
If the employees of Walmart are so underpaid, how come Walmart usually receives hundreds of applications for each job opening? It would seem to me the ones that are the MOST underpaid, are those without any jobs at all because of all the laws, regulations, taxes imposed by those who CLAIM to be so concerned for the poor, while they consistently support govt policies which keep so many poor "in their place," and out of any jobs at all, so to speak.
And, if Costco is such a stellar organization, why don't they open stores in many of the poorest areas, like Walmart does, and then pay new, untrained employees, who often have to be taught remedial reading, math, etc., as much as they pay much better qualified employees, in their much more prosperous economic areas, in which Costco usually locates?
Anyone who knows anything about the economics of successful retailing knows that they don't because they would have a constant negative bottom line at such stores. I am confident that Costco figured that out too, a long time ago.
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/...14/applications-pour-in-for-d-c-walmart-jobs/
Since few if any of us work for DISH, your Walmart comparison is not applicable (although DISH has a pretty slimy reputation as an employer).
I liked working for dish. They paid well, for the work I did, and offered great benefits and bonuses. I just couldn't stand site level management. And I was there before during and after the company was rated worst to work for.
