Concern over MPEG4

[joemama]

It it possible that the mpeg4 decoder could be put into the lnb/switch and go down the RG6 decoded to the current box's??

It's obvious that not a lot of you out there understand how digital satellite TV actually works. Doing an MPEG4 decode is not trivial and requires significantly more memory and processing power than an MPEG2 decode. (Bonus points to anyone who can explain why to the rest of the class!) Then add in the memory required to buffer the decoded A/V then re-encode it in MPEG2, build the transport stream and modulate it QPSK. You would have a box more complicated and expensive than any of the existing STB's out there.

 

[mdonnelly]

... You would have a box more complicated and expensive than any of the existing STB's out there.

More complicated? No. More expensive? Yes. The hardware exists that will do the job, and it's the same form and function as the existing hardware. Just a newer generation, building on the old. A little CAD change to replace the chips, and some firmware to tie it to the Dish way of doing things, is all it takes.

TESTING, that's the reason it will take time to get to the consumers, or at least it should be, and that also adds expense to the product.

Oh, by the way, stop patronizing us.

 

[DishSatUser]

I don't currently own a 921, so I don't completely understand the angst because I haven't layed out the cash for one.

I would be upset if I had invested close to the roll-out of another technology that makes mine obsolete.

Barring that, however, I do applaud a serious consideration in how technology can be improved to increase the amount of future service (HD and other) and capacity. MPEG2 just wasn't moving E* forward in maximizing their best use of all of those expensive sats they've launched and will be launching. Newer compression technologies that allow them to squeeze more channels onto a transponder without significant quality loss will be of benefit to E* customers in the long term.

I expect that E* will work out a method of tansisitioning customers over to MPEG4 that will try to be the least impact. If your sole interest is to make $, then you try to please the largest number of customers balanced with the roll-out costs.

I suspect that all Sat providers will in the long run move to MPEG4. I note that earlier in the chain, someone mentioned that KU FSS sat use is what was a bust for Primestar. Primestar's failure was their business model, not the technology. They could have added more channels and other features, but PrimeStar was a cable network venture for a "we also have this" mindset (similar to Voom, excepting the HD of course).

I expect that I'll have to replace my receivers eventually in order to get all of the new MPEG4 goodness. I do remember 1000, 2000 and 5000 users having similar gripes as their equipment became obsolete. Remember the 5000 users that had invested in their HD module only to be left out of the current crop of HD channels?

Since broadcasters, including cable, are continuing to have new ideas on how to provide and support HD, I still see this as an early adoption technology. Sure, I've seen how awesome it truely is, and I'm drooling to purchase an HD set in the long run, but I'm waiting just a little longer to have all of the HDVI, DVI and other connection standards to settle down first.

Personally, my opinion is that those that are able to spend $1000.00 for a buggy, irratic lump of plastic and metal can afford to move between providers at a whim. Vote with your dollars and your feet.

I'll continue to enjoy my SD service until I feel that the market is stable, that D*, E*, V* and Cable have all of their HD cards on the table. Then I'll know for sure what to expect and what the equipment options are.

I don't mean to come out overly sarcastic and I do apologize. Guess I want to say, thanks for all you beta testers! You are helping to ensure that others, like myself, do not make the mistake of purchasing any E* HD gear for the next year or so. You've done a great service showing all of the problems, bugs and mismanagment that has happened with the HD offerings so far and why to avoid them for a while longer.

 

[GregN]

Here is a good site to learn about MPEG4 solutions. Price points will permit MPEG4 consumer solutions soon.

http://www.envivio.com/markets/mediaTransport.html

More content, less bandwidth. Advanced video encoding technology of MPEG-4 H.264 consistently provides high-quality at significantly lower bit rates than existing MPEG-2 solutions

 

[tnsprin]

More complicated? No. More expensive? Yes. The hardware exists that will do the job, and it's the same form and function as the existing hardware. Just a newer generation, building on the old. A little CAD change to replace the chips, and some firmware to tie it to the Dish way of doing things, is all it takes.

TESTING, that's the reason it will take time to get to the consumers, or at least it should be, and that also adds expense to the product.

Oh, by the way, stop patronizing us.

The new chips are quite reasonable, general available next year, but i am sure samples are already available to customers like Dish/Directv/Voom/etc.

 

[kwajr]

The new chips are quite reasonable, general available next year, but i am sure samples are already available to customers like Dish/Directv/Voom/etc.

they already have boxes http://www.dailywireless.org/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=2166

 

[Soccernut]

I wonder how many E* customers actually own an HD comparable tv or how many will upgrade to one in the next 6 months (probably in the thousands) because those people are the ones that E* has to worry about short term. It seems that they will have capacity for most HD channels in a few months with new satellites.
Assuming that they can develop MPEG4 receiver's and make available in 6 months they could upgrade, lease or sell for very low up front cost if they can get you to sign up for a couple of years for $$$ (they know if you can afford a HDTV you got money to burn )per month, they could make enough to pay for the equipment make some money and keep you from going to the other guys for a long while.
They will have a lot of time to work on upgrading the ones that don't have HD TV's yet.

 

[SpenceJT]

Charlie will not announce anything until it's ready to go.

• 
  I don't recall who said this way back on page one, but they obviously have a problem with their short term memory.
  
  These words come to mind;
  
  • DishWire
  • RJ45 for future internet use
  • Name based recording in 2005
  • ???
  
  I'll stick with my $1000 921 until MPEG4 starts coming out. If D* has it first, I'll wait and see what the feedback is and consider jumping ship. I am not pleased with Echostar/Charlie falling short on promises.

 

[MikeD-C05]

I think this entire mpeg 4 conversion will be the way that Dish adds more bandwith and also gets ALL of its present customers to go all lease. IF they make all new mpeg4 receivers lease only , which is the way it is going. What with the 522 and the newer 942 which I am sure will be lease also. I sure hope that Dish will allow some kind of trade ins compensation toward the lease only receivers. I hate to think I paid $ 999.00 on this 921 and it will be nothing more than a ota tuner in the future.

This whole mess about the mpeg4 conversion and the promised name based recording that they will now, Not provide to the older dvrs , has me deeply disappointed in Dish. Charlie is doing his company and his customers a great disservice. IF we get the shaft in this conversion , which I am sure we will, this will just generate more bad will and bad word of mouth about Dishnetwork. I used to sell the hell out of this service to get people to convert to Dish. I can just as easily do the same against Dish, and so can the other subs who feel screwed by Dish, and so on, and so on, etc.

I will never invest any more $$ in any more Dish receivers . After the original dishplayer (7100/7200) fiasco, and now the $999.00 dishplayer hd boat anchor, I just can't afford any longer to do subsidize Dish and it's mistakes. When the summer commitment is up and if there is no reversing this trend with hd , name based recording , and a clear path to Mpeg4 upgrades established by Dishnetwork for all existing customers, I will be churning back to Directv.I have been with Dish since 1/18/97 and had Directv for a year in 2003 to see what the competition had.

Directv at least has the hd networks up and are on their way to the top markets in hd by summer. They at least are trying to help give their customers something for their money. I think waiting a year to add any new hd will put Dishnetwork forever behind. YOU will Lose any high end customers to the competition. Why should I have to wait a year to get any new hd? YOu have more than enough bandwith up there and if you buy VOOM as speculated , you will have an entire satellite you can devote to hd and hd alone.

Either way you need to say what your plans are or you will lose customers. This is not the time to remain silent. You never did before. Use the Charlie Chat time to outline your hd plans and reverse your decisons on name based recording to older dvrs. It is wrong to charge a dvr fee on the 510 and the 921 if we can't receive the name based recording features. THese receivers are NO different than the 501/508 or the 721 dvr receivers, except hard drive size. They shouldn't be charging the fee on the 510 or the 921 UNLESS you are going to provide comparable software such as name based recording . Ya'll need to drop the fee on the 510 or the 921 other wise.

You also need to rectify the ota guide information on the 921. The 811 gets it's ota guide without having to subscribe to locals the 921 should too. It is WRONG to treat your highend hd dvr customers different than your lower end hd customers. I have already spent 999.00 toward this receiver and now I have to sub to locals foar 5.99 in order to get the FREE ota guide that comes with the 811! This is Bullsh!t. Ya'll need consistent, fair practices . Really, why is this so hard for ya'll to figure out?

WE know you depend on these web boards to help with bugs and also advertising the latest features for your products . WE do communicate with each other so any unfair practices , different treatment of customers towards upgrades etc ,will be discussed with us. We will talk amongst ourselves and we will tell others in the world who don't even know about these web boards and we will tell them about the good as well as the BAD ya'll do.

IT is time to fix this inconsistent mess and outline your future plans. THe company silence about these issues I have talked about ,are doing you no favours. Left to our own imaginations we will think the worst and act accordingly. Please fix your mess.

 

[tnsprin]

they already have boxes http://www.dailywireless.org/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=2166

Which means announced or not DirecTv also plans to use mpeg4.

 

[Foxbat]

How long has MPEG-2 been around? I've been a Dish subscriber for 8-1/2 years and I know DirecTV was out before that (quasi-MPEG-2). So, MPEG-2 has been used to deliver Satellite programming for approximately ten years. So, here's MPEG-4 and now we need to upgrade. Fine, but let's make future generations of receivers upgradable! Otherwise, we'll be going through this again after MPEG-x comes along providing 1920x1080i with only 750Kbps.

Time after time, in talking with non-HD adapters (i.e., the general public), the perception is "why buy something today, when it will be cheaper/better/obsoleted tomorrow?" This is the group of people that expect a piece of Consumer Electronics to last 20-30 years. I mean, my Dad has a Sony Trinitron that looks as good today as when he bought it 28 years ago. Likewise, a Yamaha receiver he bought back then works just fine receiving FM and AM broadcasts. Sure, it doesn't understand any kind of Dolby or DTS, or even surrond, for that matter, but it still makes beautiful music (well, HE likes it.)

Dish made the 6000 relatively "future proof" by including upgrade slots. The 921 "should be" upgradable via the PCI slots. As far as I know, no other DBS STB maker does this. Still, if I amortized my receiver purchases over the years ($699 for my first 2000, $799 for the HM-DSR100, $725 for the Dish 6000, and $149 for my 811,) that's about $280/yr., added to the $400-500/yr. for programming. So, obviously, going with Dish has not been about "saving money". But it still hurts to look at this amount and think that it will all be for ca-ca when MPEG-4 is the standard.

 

[tnsprin]

D* joins E* in plans to go to MPEG4

D* hasn't annouced any plans to go to MPEG-4 yet. Current press release says we will be able to see the new HD channels with our current receivers. This is thanks to the massive capacity that's on the SPACEWAY satellites.

I thought I had heard D* announce plans earlier to do just that. News out of CES, reported in several places such as

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000430026331

confirm the all D* receivers will also have to be replaced because of their plans to go to MPEG-4. This definitely effects all those new HD feeds planned.

 

[JohnC]

D* and E* follow VOOM to MPEG4

VOOM has included an expansion slot for an MPEG4 card in their STB and will have an expansion slot in their HD DVR being released late this quarter. In December E* announced that new HD content will be provided with MPEG4 compression beginning in late 2005 and will require new receivers. It was confirmed that the new 942 E* HD DVR being released late this quarter can not be upgraded to MPEG4. This is absolutely incredible! D* announced this week that the new HD programming from the new Spaceway satellites that will become available this summer will have MPEG4 compression. Again, none of their present HD receivers can be upgraded to MPEG4.

It appears that E* and D* will be able to milk their HD customers for a lot of additional money, while the little company that planned for the future will miss out on this additional revenue stream. However, VOOM should become a viable alternative to E* and D* with the huge number of additional HD and SD channels they have announced for this quarter and with their HD DVR being upgradable to MPEG4.

 

[Stargazer]

Its going to have to be DirecTv's and Dish Network's problem one way or another, they either pay for the swapouts or they lose their customers to cable or to each other (like subscriber swap) that plain and simple. What I mean by subscriber swap people would switch from DirecTv to Dish Network or vice versa to get the new customer promotions that would including those MPEG-4 receivers. Its already been announced anyways that there would be no or little cost for the swapouts. Maybe they will be smart and have slots to make them upgradable again in the future, something beyond MPEG-4 and also make the memory and other hardware within the receiver upgradable. This technology changes too much for there not to be upgradable slots. These are video computers.

 

[Jstanuthrdishguy]

If the cost per swap is around 50.00 or something in that ballpark, I could live with that, especially if they spread the cost out over a couple months or more (wishfull thinking). With the exception of my DVR, I got my equipment free and can't really justify pulling a huge Superdish off the roof and paying to return to Direct. A lousy cable comany here (no HD of any kind) makes that switch unthinkable, and poor line of sight to Voom knocks them out of consideration too.