Charlie Ergen Issues Statement on Net Neutrality Rules

Look, first of all, the FCC has NO right to constitutionally or even legally establish this kind of power grab. The FCC can make no law like this. They do not have the power. Of course, that hasn't mattered to the Democrats who are in power in this lame duck session as they try to push everything through that they can before the blessed end.

This will be appealed and the "law", for lack of a better word, will fail thanks to our wonderful Constitution. Thankfully, the socialists in control have not totally torn the Constitution apart.

But, to think that a CEO like Charlie Ergan, who needs capitalism, a free market, and LESS government control to survive in business, would approve of this kind of idiocy is amazing to me. Who knew he was such a lib?


Another one of those types who dosent know what Socalism is and feels to throw it around because it the right's keyword of the year! Keep politics out of here! Go to sonicbabble for that kind of talk Or better yet go to Fox News where they instil Fear. If you want the truth, then watch a movie called Outfoxed! It will open your eyes.
 
Yes please... remember the rules here at SatelliteGuys do not allow political discussions.

We understand that something like this can become political because in reality it is a political issue. But with that in mind we must walk carefully not to violate our rules.

With that said if you do want to talk about the political implications of this please visit our sister site at Sonicbabble.com which is setup for your political discussions. :)

Thanks for your understanding.
 
Now my feelings on it is data should be data. Its bits and bytes being transmitted.

There should be no difference in price for the data I am receiving or sending because of what that data might contain (if its web traffic, watching Netflix or listening to Slacker) its still just data.

I have no issue with my ISP having different levels of service based on the amount of data you download. However I am against isp's fighting or slowing down traffic from one ISP to another just because what that data may contain. I pay to access the Internet, not the select sites that my ISP may want me to visit. I am paying for data. If I want to watch Netflix I should be able to.

Thats my take.
 
No prob. I'm trying to get the anti-net neutrality crowd to understand the absurdity of their position.

I'll admit I did hear this strange "whooshing" sound right above me as I was about to hit enter but I hadn't had my coffee yet, so I just ignored it. :D
 
Now my feelings on it is data should be data. Its bits and bytes being transmitted.

There should be no difference in price for the data I am receiving or sending because of what that data might contain (if its web traffic, watching Netflix or listening to Slacker) its still just data.

I have no issue with my ISP having different levels of service based on the amount of data you download. However I am against isp's fighting or slowing down traffic from one ISP to another just because what that data may contain. I pay to access the Internet, not the select sites that my ISP may want me to visit. I am paying for data. If I want to watch Netflix I should be able to.

Thats my take.
The original case against Comcast was that Comcast was intentionally slowing down bit torrents. The Court ruled that ISP's do have the right to regulate traffic (i.e. speeds) on their networks. The Court specifically said that the FCC did not have the authority from Congress to regulate the internet providers under current law. It definitely looks like the FCC has challenged the Court's ruling on "net neutrality" without getting new authority from Congress. This is going back to court real fast.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/technology/07net.html

WASHINGTON — A federal appeals court ruled on Tuesday that regulators had limited power over Web traffic under current law. The decision will allow Internet service companies to block or slow specific sites and charge video sites like YouTube to deliver their content faster to users. The court decision was a setback to efforts by the Federal Communications Commission to require companies to give Web users equal access to all content, even if some of that content is clogging the network.
The court ruling, which came after Comcast asserted that it had the right to slow its cable customers’ access to a file-sharing service called BitTorrent, could prompt efforts in Congress to change the law in order to give the F.C.C. explicit authority to regulate Internet service.
 
Now my feelings on it is data should be data. Its bits and bytes being transmitted.

There should be no difference in price for the data I am receiving or sending because of what that data might contain (if its web traffic, watching Netflix or listening to Slacker) its still just data.

I have no issue with my ISP having different levels of service based on the amount of data you download. However I am against isp's fighting or slowing down traffic from one ISP to another just because what that data may contain. I pay to access the Internet, not the select sites that my ISP may want me to visit. I am paying for data. If I want to watch Netflix I should be able to.

Thats my take.
And mine as well. At the risk of reviving a tired analogy, the Internet is just a pipe through which data flows. Imagine if your municipal water company signed a carriage agreement with Perrier™ to supply their water to your house, and if you wanted to flush your toilet with plain 'ol tap water, well, forget it. You're paying the higher price for Perrier... All I want from my ISP is data at the rate I contract with AT&T for. It shouldn't matter where the data originated, nor the content of the data. I want my 6 Mbps.
 
Has anyone taken a look at how telecom industry was regulated and deregulated back in the day versus what's happening now. How did that affect the telecom industry and can we apply it to what's happening now. In essence it seems like the same players back then are the same players now under diffrent companies.
 
And mine as well. At the risk of reviving a tired analogy, the Internet is just a pipe through which data flows. Imagine if your municipal water company signed a carriage agreement with Perrier™ to supply their water to your house, and if you wanted to flush your toilet with plain 'ol tap water, well, forget it. You're paying the higher price for Perrier... All I want from my ISP is data at the rate I contract with AT&T for. It shouldn't matter where the data originated, nor the content of the data. I want my 6 Mbps.


The only issue I have with this is your paying twice for the same thing. Your paying for access to a certan speed, and if the company's have it their way you will be paying per gig or bit. So in essence your paying twice for the internet and all of the lemmings are falling for it. Why not just give everyone the same speed and you pay for what you use.
 
The only issue I have with this is your paying twice for the same thing. Your paying for access to a certan speed, and if the company's have it their way you will be paying per gig or bit. So in essence your paying twice for the internet and all of the lemmings are falling for it. Why not just give everyone the same speed and you pay for what you use.
Fah! I need my coffee! I apologize; the point I wasn't trying to make was to charge twice for the Internet. I was try to say that my ISP should provide a service that provides 6 Mbps, no limits to content. I should have made that more clear. (The old analogy was "the Internet is a bunch of pipes")

The last thing I want is the current Wireless model brought into my house!
 
From a technical viewpoint, I could never understand the concept of slowing down traffic other than to discourage it's use in that connection. Seems to improve the bottlenecks in traffic, you want it to move along as fast as possible without collisions. Collisions would be the only reason to regulate the speed. analogy- the highway system.

Now along comes a business M&A and we have ISP's who also have content distribution. BY slowing down the traffic to a competitor content provider, they can discourage use of the competition. This is the sort of scenario that the FCC and net neutrality wants to discourage. Whether the FCC has an authority to do that or not needs to be addressed in the courts and if necessary a law needs to be passed to specifically grant that authority. WE don't want the FCC to legislate only to enforce.

Now we have a good reason for business to throttle and discriminate the data you exchange. It is based on their business model. Follow the money. They throttle the internet to grant advantage to their own business and create disruption with their competition. Solution- Regulate businesses to prevent mergers and acquisitions that join an ISP with a content provider. Remove the reason to discriminate the traffic on their service. Bust up conglomerates that create this conflict of interest and the reason will be gone.

I agree that we can not have the FCC legislating but want Net Neutrality to stand so conglomerates cannot ruin competitive businesses. Cable providers should not be in the ISP business. Telephone companies should not be in the ISP or TV distribution business. Cable TV companies should not be in the phone business.

Maybe the real solution to the Net Neutrality debate is to make ISP a public utility, like the electric company, water and sewer company. It may also require the cell phone companies splitting off their wireless data services to the ISP utility as well.
The downside to this was as exampled in the AT&T breakup was much higher cost for the service. Something our government lied about. They said it would lower cost but it raised it. I'm afraid this will be the price for a government controlled internet- Much higher cost.

Free market capitalism- Deregulate it and let the service providers compete with what the public is willing to pay for. example- In a given area the three ISP's are AT&T, Comcast, and wireless cell providers. Say with new technology all have similar upper speed capability but one decides to offer a competitive service called no speed limit service and a pay as you use. However it is expensive compared to the censored speed limited pipes with censored access. Now we have a provider offering what we want true net neutrality but it cost. The difference here is the cost will be competitive and all companies will compete or lose customers. Free market capitalism is unregulated but Net neutrality is offered because of competition not regulation. The trick here is to get one company to offer the service and demonstrate the people are willing to pay for it.


Scott- I agree with what you said but you did not offer the various scenarios on how to achieve it. I listed some of the conflicts above and how each would be achieved. Personally, I don't like regulation as once you get it, it is much harder to remove it and once you get it, it will grow and multiply like a virus. Free market capitalism keeps the businesses open the way they want and as long as we allow competition the people will have the choice to choose with their wallets.
Let's make sure we have competition and strict enforcement of existing anti trust laws.
 
First of all we must deal with the fact that more than likely the FCC does NOT have the authority to do what they have done. Congress can step in and and essentially strike down the FCC's regulations on Net Neutrality or maybe the courts will. In it's purest sense I suppose Net Neutrality would make sense. However anytime the government, Fed, State and Local get involved in regulating anything it usually becomes a bigger mess than it was before the government stepped in. As far as I can tell, and I am probably an average net user, I believe I am receiving the service I pay for, my connection speeds are adequate for my needs and I can even stream Netflix movies to my satisfaction. At this point in time I'm not so sure we need Net Neutrality, but maybe I miss the bigger picture...
Like many folks I have been using the internet since the beginning. I know the original AOL and Prodigy services were not really the internet but they were the closest folks not in the government got to the internet at that time. Now just about everyone has the internet at home and work. As far as I can see it has pretty much regulated itself and if left alone probably will continue to do so.

Ross
 
All I want from my ISP is data at the rate I contract with AT&T for. It shouldn't matter where the data originated, nor the content of the data. I want my 6 Mbps.

Copyright holders do not agree, and they flex their muscle with our law makers.
 
Interesting view on 'net neutrality' from some of the broadband telcom, wireless, and cable companies (these are not my words, they come from the web site NETCompetition.org


The term “Net Neutrality” is misleading because it insinuates the Net is neutral today; in fact, it is not neutral. Imposing Net Neutrality would not maintain the status quo, but force big changes in the Internet’s operation.

Net traffic treatment is not neutral:
· The Internet engineering community has long recognized a passive (neutral) Internet is a dysfunctional Internet; it’s been developing “active queuing” (prioritization) to avoid service degradation or “Internet
meltdown.” See Internet Society, April 1998, RFC 2309: ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc2309.txt
· Keynote, the Internet’s Performance Authority, tracks how Internet connection speed varies among carriers and how performance (jitter & latency) varies between routes, among other Internet differences.
· Internet transmission has never been “neutral” or a “level playing field.” Large entities that invest more in infrastructure and pay more than smaller operators or bloggers, routinely get better Internet service:
o Akamai’s caching services, provides advantage of faster, more reliable downloads of large files;
o Owning high capacity “fat pipes” tied to peering exchanges provides a performance advantage;
o Employing additional QOS services (quality of service) affords a performance advantage; and
o Hosting in multiple strategically-located, high-end data centers provides superior performance.
· Google’s massive server farms give Google a big Net performance advantage over other search engines.

Internet backbone peering is not neutral:
· The Internet backbone has long been tiered, based on amounts of traffic exchanged. Peering, the
voluntary interconnection of networks, is unequal and thus tiered based on the reach of a network.
· Internet backbone Tier 1 networks sell to, or peer with, every network, but do not pay for transit. Tier 2 networks peer, but pay for some transit over the Internet. Tier 3 networks must pay to reach the Internet.
· Internet backbone peering has never been regulated and most Internet traffic is in fact privately peered.

Net access pricing is not neutral:
· Internet access price differentiation is the norm. Consumers can choose from a wide variety of Internet price/speed tiers: Dial-up (free to ~$20 monthly), DSL (~$15 to $60+), Cable is (~$20-60+), Satellite broadband (~$50-100+), WiFi (free to ~$30+) Wireless broadband/Wimax (~$50-80+).
· Prices differ greatly depending on which bundled products/services one buys and for what time period.

Net usage is not neutral:
· Internet use is not equal. A small slice of users consume most of the Internet’s bandwidth because they use highly-bandwidth-intensive applications like peer2peer video-file-sharing/gaming, high definition video. The most commonly-used applications require relatively little bandwidth i.e. email, web surfing.
· 5% of Net users use 51% of the bandwidth and 25% use 85% overall, per Time Warner Cable.
· Net neutrality average pricing is reverse Robin Hood: average users must subsidize bandwidth hogs.

Net regulatory/legal precedent is not neutral:
· 30+ million cable modem and satellite broadband users have never been subject to net neutrality.
· In 1993, Congress ruled wireless competitive, meaning no net neutrality for 210 million wireless users.
· In 2005, FCC decided to not apply net neutrality to DSL -- ruling it competitive and unregulated.
· Snowe-Dorgan would create new one-size-fits-all regulation for all broadband providers even free one
 
I don't know why people whine so much about federal regulations.
They come into play when they are needed and go out when they are no longer needed.
Just like they did with the Telecom industry.
If it hadn't been for Gov regulation , we would all have just one phone company.(AT&T) and probably paying ungodly amounts of money to use it.
Most of you are probably to young to remember but when phones started being placed in homes. There was only one phone you could get, and you couldn't go to the store and buy it. You had to lease it from AT&T for 9.99 a month. They even charged an extra couple of bucks a month extra if you wanted a non black phone.
Phone regulation died so many times it was unreal and it was called "unamerican" to stifle the free-trade with burdensome regulations.
The problem was, there was no free trade. AT&T was the most powerful company in the world and they wouldn't let any competition use there lines.
Eventually the hands off approach backfired and ATT got ripped into the baby bells and regulations went into place to make sure all the baby bells and some of the new players all played fair.

With net neutrality in place, Comcast and Verizon can't restrict a smaller ISP's services because they don't agree with what their doing or how they are running their business. They can still charge higher rates to the smaller ISP's but they can't suddenly throttle them because they don't like what their doing.
It also helps the customer. Because now your ISP can't throttle you because your watching something or going places they don't like.
Sometimes the Gov has to step in and lay down the law to big companies. Theres also times to remove it.


Another great example of regulation is the banking industry. With strong regulations they were solid and healthy companies with limited risk to depositors and investors. But from the mid 70's till today, the regulations have been cut piece by piece. The first real mess came with the savings and loan industry. Politicians of all walks swore to regulate the industry better. They didn't.
The current mess with banks and wallstreet didn't come about because of regulation. It came about because all the regulations that kept them from doing stupid acts were cut over the years. Like investing in insurance policies on loans they knew were going to go bad. Or creating phantom investment documents that have no real value except for what you say its worth.

Regulation works and its not as bad as some nutjobs in the media make it out to be
 
Here is the thing...

Where here at SatelliteGuys pay for every bit of data you guys download from us. (We are charged by the Terrabyte) the busier we are the more it costs to run the site. I don't have a problem with this at all, it is a fair system.

What I dont want to see is in the future is if I post a video of how a new DVR works that our ISP charge us more for the data that was transfered that was video content. Data should just be that data. a 2 megabyte file is a 2 megabyte file not matter if its a video file or a forum posting.

It is true that even now the net is not neutral, you can be on a good isp or a bad isp. I chose out provider because of all their backbone connections, who else hosts there and the price. I think the current setup works as long as ISP's do not try to filter what is being delivered and t rying to bill based on the type of content. 1 meg is still one 1 meg no matter what the content is.

I also think its unfair for companies to block streaming to certain devices, such as GoogleTV or Boxee. These boxes are nothing more then glorified PC's that offer a TV output. If I want to output my computer to my TV that should be my choice.

I have a feeling 2011 we are going to see a lot of disputes... and I am not just talking about DISH Network.
 
Scott, while I do agree with some of your points as well as your reasoning behind them, it's important to point out that internet access is not a God-given right nor is it implied within our Constitution. These companies that host the internet pipes we all enjoy have invested millions, if not hundreds of millions, of dollars of their money. It is not taxpayer-funded dollars that built the current system (I know DARPA was originally a government effort, but please, we're way beyond that and have been for some time).

While I wouldn't want an ISP to block or downgrade my content, it's their pipe I'm 'renting'. I can't see how this net neutrality thing is anything more than "throwing away free market principles in order to save the free market", to paraphrase W a few years ago. When I lease or rent a house or apartment, I can't do whatever I want to the place because I don't own it. I can't say "I want a wall here and I should be able to have one because it's my choice". The owner has the right to do whatever they want. Whether that's 'fair' or not is really besides the point.

I would love it if every internet pipe owner simply treated 1's and 0's as 1's and 0's, but I'm also realistic. Personally, I would not choose an internet provider if it started blocking sites in favor of its own content. We all have choices in which ISP to use, granted some are more expensive than others. But this is same with every single 'service' I use. I choose which TV service, phone service, cell company, etc, based on price and services offered. AT&T doesn't charge me to call my wife on her cell phone because she also has AT&T. If I call my boss, she has Verizon and I pay for that call. (BTW, Ma Bell was created BY government regulation, it was de-regulated by the gov which then allowed other companies to get into the home phone business and drive down costs to consumers). Where's the FCC with cell phone neutrality!!

Honestly, I'm still up-in-the-air regarding what the FCC did. I can see advantages to both sides of the issue. I just know that it's very easy to regulate something but it's very difficult to stop regulating it down the road. By default I would always prefer less regulation and let the market decide.
 
Most are ignoring the fact that the Federal Court has told the FCC it does not have the authority to regulate ISP's. Congress must pass a law giving the FCC the new authority to propose the "net neutrality" regulations. Look for an injunction against the new regs very soon.
 

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