CES 2007. HD-DVD not looking to well.

That's probably your most intelligent response to date.

yup probably is. I'm honestly just tired of arguing with you HD-DVD zealots. And this is not directed toward an individual, but most of you are just ___________. you fill in the blank. you can guess what I'll put in there.

There might be a few of the Warner titles that has LPCM and TrueHD for the soundtracks on different formats; but once you introduce multiple players you've just changed the variables again due to different hardware in play.

I call this, "Covering One's Ass." Seems like an assertion that HD DVD hardware is not superior to BD hardware since everyone that has heard LPCM on BD says it sound absolutely amazing, me included.
 
yup probably is. I'm honestly just tired of arguing with you HD-DVD zealots. And this is not directed toward an individual, but most of you are just ___________. you fill in the blank. you can guess what I'll put in there.

Boy, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. If you change the format name in here, you've just described yourself.

When you're confronted with real information you don't know what to say.

I call this, "Covering One's Ass." Seems like an assertion that HD DVD hardware is not superior to BD hardware since everyone that has heard LPCM on BD says it sound absolutely amazing, me included.

Actually what it says is that the actual audio hardware in use is different and until you can compare them directly on the same player you aren't comparing in a proper fashion. It's eliminating a variable so that all that is left is any "difference" between a TrueHD soundtrack and an LPCM soundtrack. I can tell you haven't spent any time building audio tests.

Tell me, how many TrueHD soundtracks have you listened to on HD-DVD? I'm guessing that count is very close to zero. OTOH; I've had experience with both TrueHD and LPCM soundtracks. The bad part is they've been on different discs; with different soundtracks. So which sounds "better" here has a few variables involved. Different players; different mixes etc.
 
I thought I had responded to this last night; and I did not.

Since when? DTS has always prided them selfs on the fact that DTS isn't as compressed as DD. On DVD's that have both sound tracks, I've made some comparisons. They either sound the same, or the DTS sounds like it has a better overall range.

Themselves; not "them selfs" ;) Okay, now that today's grammar lesson is over let's move on to the real stuff :D

This argument; DTS is less compressed than DD therefore it's better; falls into the category of a "McDonald's argument"; more is better is the basics of it. By this logic; McDonald's is the best restaurant in the world because they have the most restaurants.

With all else being equal; more bits is better but that's the rub. Are the two CODECs equal in their ability to garner compression on a movie soundtrack? Nope they aren't.

One of the things that both CODECs due is divide each channel into discrete frequency bands. DTS uses 32 bands of equal size across the entire audio spectrum. Dolby Digital uses 50 bands of varying size with most of those bands concentrated in the 500Hz - 5kHz range which is our most sensitive hearing region. If you have more datapoints to compress with; you can get more compression. All of the bands are sized based on knowledge of psychoacoustics to be below the critical threshold where noise might creep in.

Because the codecs employed are different; a simplified "More bits is better" approach simply doesn't work.

Also; unless you know with complete certainty that the encoder feeds were identical you can't say codec "X" sounds better than codec "Y". That is often not the case.

Take Steely Dan's "Two Against Nature" concert DVD. Here; the surrounds and LFE levels are elevated on the DTS track in comparison to the DD track. Which sounds "better"? Well in general, louder is better to our ears. So without knowing that the surround and LFE levels are goosed on the DTS track it would be easy to come to the conclusion that DTS sounds "better". If you take the time to measure and correct for the differences in levels, then the differences become exceptionally small between the two tracks.

Cheers,
 
1. No region coding is still up in the air. Probabaly will be decided by this summer.

2. There will be plenty of porn on BluRay -- just not right now.

3. Oh yeah, I can't wait for a CHEAP Chinese player -- you know they are going to be feature rich -- NOT.

4. And where oh where Bob did you find this little tidbit. If there is no HD-DVD then they will release on what is out there.

5. You keep bring up Disney -- why don't you give it a rest -- not going to happen this year -- who says -- why Buena Vista the publisher for Disney movies.

Bob, you keep bringing up the same stuff. Most of this stuff was well reported during and after the CES this year. But yet, every so many posts you keep bringing it up. Maybe one of these days you will be on target but not today with this post.

This from the guy who keeps trying to prod Universal into surrendering.....

OK, whatever..... as for the porn angle, here ya go...

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=36942

as for the disc replicating advantage for HD DVD AND another shot at why porn prefers HD DVD.....

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB116960234207185753-9uicxRvm3XCgg6Birj9aQMpTBlo_20080123.html

Note that is the Wall St. Journal if you felt my first link wasn't credible enough....

..and now a response from someone on another site that tried to assert that BluRay's win was inevitable....

http://forum.hd-dvd.com/showthread.php?t=336 (scroll down to the second post)

another salvo from the porn front....

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technology/archives/2007/01/12/porn_could_tilt_the_hidef_dvd_war.html

(my favorite line....
Someone from Tom's Hardware went round the AVN Adult Entertainment Expo in Las Vegas last week. He "did a quick straw poll on, the virtues of HD DVD versus Blu-ray, and the answer from a dozen companies, big and small, including Pink Visual and Bangbros editor-in-chief, is going into a single direction: HD DVD is the preferred format. Period.")

Note that my contention that porn producers equal "smaller independent production companies" to answer your challenge of my 4th assertion. BluRay replication facilities cost at least triple what the equivalent HD DVD plant would.... They would then have to get "in line" to try and use existing facilities, ... who would likely shove them aside to kick out Casino Royale in large quantities before they get any attention.....

Hey, I don't mean for this to get personal..... We disagree and I respect your opinion..... many fencesitters try to decide which way they want to go, and a few may drift by here to help make their decision. I just couldn't let propaganda from the BluRay camp go totally unchallenged. Both camps have pluses and minuses, but neither is a prohibitive favorite.

I actually believe that both will eventually fail to do more than modest success as IP TV does to video disc media what Itunes did to CD sales....
 
As for the Chinese player crack, I don't want one either..... But A LOT of standard DVD players were sold when people could buy them for $100 and less at their local Walmart. A large swath of the market will never buy a piece of media playback equipment which costs more than $99.

The first one to get there will see market share quickly ramp up......

Once again, the chinese players aren't for the enthusiasts, but as any SACD/DVD Audio fan will tell you..... audio/videophiles aren't enough to ensure a format's success... you have to motivate the less financially liquid and less quality discerning to embrace your format. Whether you can convince them to leave DVD and move to the next generation will be the challenge (without of course leapfrogging it entirely and going straight to direct downloads)
 
Hey, I'll bet those Chineese players play HD DVD better than the LG multi-blue player does. Heck, they'll probably even have HD DVD logos and support HDi features. :) Boggles the mind, doesn't it!

-John

PS> I'm open to Chineese players. I have two APEX TVs, and they have been great for me!
 
It would be nice if a winner became clear this summer or this year. I don't think the internet will completely, or even largely, replace discs. Not everyone has broadband, and not everyone wants to watch it on their computer or fool with hooking it up to their TV. And it's easier to just shove a disc into a player.

The "cheaper" argument for HD-DVD is limited in it's effect. When you spread the added costs of the more expensive BD plants and discs over tens of millions of players and hundreds of millions of titles over many years, there simply isn't going to be much difference to the consumer. Cheaper players are a factor. But let's see- the manufacturer can build 2 head assemblies- one with slightly less precision for the HD-DVD, and one that's more precise in tracking for BD. Or they can just build the one, that works for both, and save inventory, tracking and setup costs etc. No cost difference there. We're down to software & licensing cost differences now. The players need not have large price differences, once the early price subsidizing ends and production ramps up. Until then, cheaper players have an edge, for as long as that lasts.

Capacity matters. There are estimates of up to 200GB BD discs. Just like some software is sold today, we will buy a movie on disc that may have another 1, 2 or 3 movies on it, that will be "unlocked" with payment of a fee. Cover art and info can be included for all movies on the disc, as an incentive to pay the unlock fee. Now talk about cost per movie.

I've read that early on it was considered possible to put a DVD and BD on the same disc, maybe it was by flipping it over. I don't have the link but I'll look for it. No one does that today, but perhaps they will.

BD replicators are reluctant to pump out porn, but it seems at least one will. We'll see if Vivid gets their BD title out in March or April as planned. If the market shifts to BD, more will, or maybe a replicator will arise who specializes in porn.

The BD camp still has another, unused, security feature called BD+. And they have watermarking.

On the other hand, HD-DVD has a head start and may get really cheap players out before BD, if they last that long. Also, Sony has a way of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. They are arrogant and do stupid things, like the root kit and this tentative censorship move. They should be making it at least as easy to put porn or any content on BD as it is with HD-DVD. If they successfully discourage porn, what's next? Political statements? Historical products that mention the rape of Nanking? Mentions of their competitor's products?

If Sony can hold their studio camp together, and really does start outselling HD-DVD titles by some multiple (not just 30% or 40%), and gets GOOD players out (like with ethernet connections for upgrades of firmware) near in price to HD-DVD players, keep PQ and ease of use equal to HD-DVD, and maybe even maintain a capacity lead, then they'll probably win. The BD exclusive titles coming out this summer will be a factor, especially by next Xmas.

On the other hand, if they blow this, and I think there's an excellent chance they will, then HD-DVD can certainly win. And I can then gladly continue my dislike of Sony undiluted. I still think BD has an edge and will likely win. But it's no sure thing.
 
umm. Kotches can prolly give u the low down, but i do believe that DTS soundtracks are less compressed than DD, and that is why they are sparsely on DVD's.

It's interesting that you say that because now that I looked that up it seems more sources are teling me that the DTS bitrate is higher than AC-3 (thus resulting in a less aggressive compression routine). I guess my training manual was incorrect (I used to work in consumer electronics a few years ago).
 
It's interesting that you say that because now that I looked that up it seems more sources are teling me that the DTS bitrate is higher than AC-3 (thus resulting in a less aggressive compression routine). I guess my training manual was incorrect (I used to work in consumer electronics a few years ago).

It's true; but it isn't just more bits is better... I posted about this earlier in the thread.

It matters how they arrive at the bit rate that matters just as much and since DD has more frequency bands they can compress more from the start.

See my other post on this topic for more information...

Cheers,
 
It would be nice if a winner became clear this summer or this year. I don't think the internet will completely, or even largely, replace discs. Not everyone has broadband, and not everyone wants to watch it on their computer or fool with hooking it up to their TV. And it's easier to just shove a disc into a player.

On the other hand, if they blow this, and I think there's an excellent chance they will, then HD-DVD can certainly win. And I can then gladly continue my dislike of Sony undiluted. I still think BD has an edge and will likely win. But it's no sure thing.

Yep, I think the Internet downloading replacing optical discs is way overblown. Maybe in 10 years, as technology improves, but in 10 years, folks will probably laugh at the notion of 1080p being "high def". For now, the ISP's won't stand for heavy downloading of movies; it will clog their networks. I have satellite broadband (WildBlue) 'cause I live in the boonies. I have the most expensive Pro servicve plan, and my 30 day download limit is 17GB; no way I am going to DL HD movies. And, while most customers probably don't know it, all cable & DSL services have monthly data limits as well. When I lived in Vegas in the 90's I had Cox cable internet. A teenage nephew stayed the summer with me and, while I didn't realize it, he was DL'ing movies and music galore. I got a letter from Cox warning me about exceeding the monthly limit, by over double. (Could have been worse I guess; better than getting one of those letters from MPAA demanding thousands of bucks for copyright violation) :eek:

While I bought into HD DVD last May, I like Sony just fine - for their hardware. My HDTV & A/V receiver both have Sony logos and I'm very pleased with their quality. I just learned a long time ago to avoid their "superior, but proprietary formats", and their software, quite frankly and pardon my French, sucks! The only Sony DVD's I own are Superbit. The last Sony DVD I rented had both Full & Wide Screen editions squeezed onto the same DVD and looked like complete crap on my 57" 1080i Sony TV.

I do have to agree Blu-ray still has the edge, but it always has. At CES 2006, experts were questioning if Toshiba would even bother to launch HD DVD. Time will tell . . .
 

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