Center channel speaker question

[bebop]

I currently have a 'Mission' speaker M71 acting as my center channel speaker. The specs on the back are:

• Type: 2-Way Reflex loaded
• Freq Response: +/- 3dB 65Hz to 20kHz
• Cross-Over Freq: 2.8kHz
• Impedance: 8 ohm
• Recommended Amp: 25-75W/ch
• 88dB sensitivity

My question is if it is worth buying a 'center channel' speaker that is more designed for this application? I looked at the specs on a Polk audio center channel speaker and they weren't much different. The main difference was the 2nd 5.25" woofer in it.

My problem right now is that my center channel never really gets that loud. I basically have to setup my Onkyo SR606 to 'All Channels Stereo' to get good sound, especially when I watch movies or regular satellite shows. I tried other speakers and this one is much better from what I had available.

I'm wondering if it's worth spending $60-$200 on a center channel speaker.

Here's one I saw yesterday at a good price:
Newegg.com - Polk Audio CS1 Cherry Center Channel Loudspeaker Single

 

[bebop]

I looked at the speaker wire connections some more and the setup looks like this:

LF (Black) || HF (Black)+ || HF (Red)- || LF (Red)


4 posts, first 2 are black, second 2 are red. The two in the middle are - and +.

Perhaps I should connect all 4 inputs instead of connecting the 2 in the middle for HF. Essentially by leaving out the LF, and looking at the crossover frequency, maybe I'm leaving out everything below 2.8kHz.

I'm just not sure how to wire up the other inputs the best. Maybe I should put a jumper on the two inputs in the middle and connect the receiver inputs to the LF black & red.

 

[dfergie]

If you are happy with your system, stick with what you have... I have small Center speakers and have been surprised at how good of a job they do.

 

[bebop]

I'm happy except that something seems like it's missing on my center channel. Whenever I set it to Dolby mode or similar all the main audio from speech is missing and it's like the center channel is the one lacking (hence me leaving the AV receiver in All Channel Stereo mode).

After some looking, I think the back of that speaker referrs to high pass and low pass filters - so I want to try re-wiring it before anything else. I've never had a center channel speaker that was designed for that use, so I didn't know if there was something special about them.

I figure if I can do something to make it better that doesn't cost a lot or is a good investment, then it's worth doing. Just learning...


I'll tell you what, this Onkyo AV receiver has more and more functionality than I ever realized. What a good investment that was. I tied everything to it and am quite pleased.

Now if only there was a way to tell what kind of audio was being incuded in the satellite programming. I've only seen where the info says 'Stereo' on certain shows, but nothing more than that. I wonder if the 'stereo' notation is better quality than the norm, or not. I've yet to play around and see for myself. And I don't get a good chance to do it with a toddler sleepig when I have free time and a wife on bed rest now before the twins are born...all in good time.

 

[bebop]

Okay, well my idea about jumpering the center two connections seemed backward, so I put two jumpers on. One on the black connections and one on the red connections.

I hooked it back up and - presto - the speaker sounds awesome. I've never had a speaker what was designed for two seperate channels of input, so I didn't get it setup correctly in the first place. Now on to testing which listening mode sounds best for each input - and still need to find out which satellite programs (if any) come with 5.1 Dolby or similar.

It's like I got a free upgrade on my speakers by doing some homework.

 

[jayn_j]

Okay, well my idea about jumpering the center two connections seemed backward, so I put two jumpers on. One on the black connections and one on the red connections.

I hooked it back up and - presto - the speaker sounds awesome. I've never had a speaker what was designed for two seperate channels of input, so I didn't get it setup correctly in the first place. Now on to testing which listening mode sounds best for each input - and still need to find out which satellite programs (if any) come with 5.1 Dolby or similar.

It's like I got a free upgrade on my speakers by doing some homework.

The speaker allowed it to be bi-amplified. That means feeding the low and high frequencies from separate amplifiers, rather than relying on the internal crossover network.

The Onkyo is set up to support bi-amplification, but only on the left and right main speakers, by using the second zone amplifiers. I've never found it worth the bother, but some say it produces a richer sound.

You now have it set up correctly for what the Onkyo supports for center channel, and I'm happy it is working out for you. Enjoy.

 

[bebop]

Thanks for the info. There are a lot of options in the Onkyo setup menu that I didn't know all the details about. I saw the "bi-amp" option, but didn't do anything with it.

I did notice that there is something like a bass-doubler (or similar) option, which when allowed to select looks like it sends the low frequency part of the audio not only to the sub-woofer, but to the center channel and the front channel speakers.

I think that would be handy if I had the sub-woofer turned off and still wanted some bass. Your thoughts?

Maybe I should rename this thread to: Learning how to setup my AV system.

 

[jayn_j]

Thanks for the info. There are a lot of options in the Onkyo setup menu that I didn't know all the details about. I saw the "bi-amp" option, but didn't do anything with it.

I did notice that there is something like a bass-doubler (or similar) option, which when allowed to select looks like it sends the low frequency part of the audio not only to the sub-woofer, but to the center channel and the front channel speakers.

I think that would be handy if I had the sub-woofer turned off and still wanted some bass. Your thoughts?

Maybe I should rename this thread to: Learning how to setup my AV system.

When I run audessey, it turns this feature ON. The manual says it works best with larger main speakers, and I do have that. The KG-5s have a 12" woofer and I am running a Velodyne RS-12 sub. I have tried experimenting with this, and I find that the sound is cleaner if I turn this back off, set the main speakers for a 60 Hz cutoff and set the cutoff on the sub to 80 Hz. I then crank the sub a little higher.

My feeling is that this will work better if you have reasonable mains and a mid priced or smaller sub. Others can correct me here, but I think you want to get most of the dialog components and the bass you actually hear into the mains and the bass you feel into the sub.

Of course, that all depends on the relative quality of the mains and subs. If you have small bookshelf speakers, you probably want to turn the feature off and pass more bass to a good sub. If you have one of those smaller subs that come with HTIB systems, this might be a good option. It would also be ideal if you had good main speakers and a mid priced sub.

 

[harshness]

I have a theory about having lots of drivers in a center channel speaker and how it creates phase cancellation nodes. It is particularly bad with some models and just noticeable with others.

If I thought I could get away with a single driver, I'd do it to avoid dead spots. For now, I have an M&K two-way center channel and it works pretty nicely.

 

[bebop]

When I run audessey, it turns this feature ON. The manual says it works best with larger main speakers, and I do have that. The KG-5s have a 12" woofer and I am running a Velodyne RS-12 sub. I have tried experimenting with this, and I find that the sound is cleaner if I turn this back off, set the main speakers for a 60 Hz cutoff and set the cutoff on the sub to 80 Hz. I then crank the sub a little higher.

My feeling is that this will work better if you have reasonable mains and a mid priced or smaller sub. Others can correct me here, but I think you want to get most of the dialog components and the bass you actually hear into the mains and the bass you feel into the sub.

Of course, that all depends on the relative quality of the mains and subs. If you have small bookshelf speakers, you probably want to turn the feature off and pass more bass to a good sub. If you have one of those smaller subs that come with HTIB systems, this might be a good option. It would also be ideal if you had good main speakers and a mid priced sub.

I'm still experimenting with that feature and others. I moved the Mission speaker and it's match to my mains and connected the HF and LF.

I have a mid level sub - but I don't use it that much. Thanks for the advice.

 

[bebop]

I have a theory about having lots of drivers in a center channel speaker and how it creates phase cancellation nodes. It is particularly bad with some models and just noticeable with others.

If I thought I could get away with a single driver, I'd do it to avoid dead spots. For now, I have an M&K two-way center channel and it works pretty nicely.

I found a 3 way center channel speaker tonight and hooked it up, but it sounded crappy - so I'm back to a 2 way.

My main problem is solved with loosing the audio on the center channel - so now I need to tweak things until I'm content.

 

[jayn_j]

I have a theory about having lots of drivers in a center channel speaker and how it creates phase cancellation nodes. It is particularly bad with some models and just noticeable with others.

If I thought I could get away with a single driver, I'd do it to avoid dead spots. For now, I have an M&K two-way center channel and it works pretty nicely.

Back in the old dolby pro-logic days, I had a Denon AVC 3000. I also had a Sony CRT rear projector. I attempted to hook up two smaller KG-3 Klipsch speakers for the center. Denon actually recommended this combo at the time and provided two center channel outputs. The speakers were about 50 inches apart and I ran into exactly the problem you mentioned. It turned out that there was a big center channel null right at the video sweet spot on my couch.

This was before dedicated center speakers, so I ended up opening up the KG3 and rotating the horn 90 degrees. I then laid the speaker on its side under the screen and had no further problems.

 

[jvc]

My problem right now is that my center channel never really gets that loud. I basically have to setup my Onkyo SR606 to 'All Channels Stereo' to get good sound, especially when I watch movies or regular satellite shows. I tried other speakers and this one is much better from what I had available.

It sounds like your speakers haven't been calibrated. Did you run the Audyssey auto calibration? I didn't see where you had said that you had run it. It usually does a very good job. It did on mine. I double checked it with my SPL meter, and it was so close, it wasn't worth changing. The only thing I changed was, the Audyssey tends to set all the speakers to "Full Band". I changed that, because I use a subwoofer. Some people like to add a bit more volume to the center channel too, since 99% of the talking comes from it.

You really NEED a center speaker that matches your main front speakers, meaning same brand and same series. Example: if your fronts are Polk Audio LSi speakers, you want an LSiC center. Not an RTiA center, even though it's a Polk speaker. It's fairly critical that the front three speakers timbre match, so panned sounds across the front don't sound funny. Ideally, all the speakers should match, but not as critical if the rear ones don't match the fronts.

I have a mid level sub - but I don't use it that much.

Why? Does your fronts have better woofers than the subwoofer? Just curious.
Glad you have it working better. Good luck!

 

[navychop]

Sounds like you came out well. Personally, I've come to believe the center is very important, perhaps the most important speaker in the system. It will be driven the most, for dialog and casual TV viewing. I also have a 7.1 system, and I went with an all new matched Klipsch set, and Onkyo 805. I was stunned by how much better the audio became, especially the center- and I thought I had a decent center beforehand.

Kinda makes listening to old recordings a new experience.

 

[bebop]

It sounds like your speakers haven't been calibrated. Did you run the Audyssey auto calibration? I didn't see where you had said that you had run it. It usually does a very good job. It did on mine. I double checked it with my SPL meter, and it was so close, it wasn't worth changing. The only thing I changed was, the Audyssey tends to set all the speakers to "Full Band". I changed that, because I use a subwoofer. Some people like to add a bit more volume to the center channel too, since 99% of the talking comes from it.

You really NEED a center speaker that matches your main front speakers, meaning same brand and same series. Example: if your fronts are Polk Audio LSi speakers, you want an LSiC center. Not an RTiA center, even though it's a Polk speaker. It's fairly critical that the front three speakers timbre match, so panned sounds across the front don't sound funny. Ideally, all the speakers should match, but not as critical if the rear ones don't match the fronts.


Why? Does your fronts have better woofers than the subwoofer? Just curious.
Glad you have it working better. Good luck!

Speakers had been calibrated just fine. It was an issue of only utilizing the high frequency part of the center channel speaker and not the low frequency part. Once I jumpered the high and low freq together on the + and - side, the full sound came through like it ought to.

Glad you mentioned the calibration though, because now that I've redone some of my speakers, I should run it again.

My front/center speakers don't 'match' brand, but they are similar type and wattage, so I don't NEED it. It sounds great now and I'm not going to spend hundreds more for matching brand/type speakers.

I don't utilize the sub very often because of the others in my home that enjoy sleeping without the bass kicking in so much. The other speakers provide enough bass for normal listening, and I crank on the sub when everyone is up and we want it loud. Thnigs would be different if I were single or at least didn't have kids. But it's well worth it...

 

[bebop]

Sounds like you came out well. Personally, I've come to believe the center is very important, perhaps the most important speaker in the system. It will be driven the most, for dialog and casual TV viewing. I also have a 7.1 system, and I went with an all new matched Klipsch set, and Onkyo 805. I was stunned by how much better the audio became, especially the center- and I thought I had a decent center beforehand.

Kinda makes listening to old recordings a new experience.

I did, thanks navychop. Nice to have some others to bounce off ideas and see if there are better ways of doing things.

I agree about the center channel speaker, hence trying to improve things. I don't have a good setup for 7.1, so I'm back to 5.1. I don't have many sources that I listen to that would utilize the extra channels and a bad layout to get them in a good spot.

Maybe one day I'll feel like upgrading to all matching speakers, but I've spent too much on the home theater this past 1 1/2 years as it is.

 

[navychop]

And if mamma ain't happy, ........