Can I convert by C Band dish by replacing the LNFB and putting tin foil over the dish

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Most television facilities use a minimum 6 foot dish on Ku-Band. I guess there's a good reason for that, other than just rain fade prevention. The smaller hobbyist dishes are a trade-off, and there are probably many feeds that are only visible on a larger dish.
 
Most television facilities use a minimum 6 foot dish on Ku-Band. ..
And even that doesn't stop rain fade sometimes. Several times I've watched remote network feeds when rainstorms popped up at the uplink, and the signal dropped off the chart. I'm sure that the intended recipient probably still got reception, because they probably had big dishes at both ends, but I've also seen cases where my local stations were receiving signals from rain fade locations and the local station lost the signal too, so even the experts aren't immune to the problems, which kind of makes me feel a bit better when I have problems. :)
 
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Could you take contact cement and paint it on the dish then lay some of that shiny mirror like plastic stuff they make emergency blankets out of onto it?
 
Hello Houston,

It MIGHT work, but it might be similar to using house paint to do your finger nails -- Not going to work right or "look" right to the LNBF.

Now, if you are a real red-neck, the analogy falls apart, "What else would you use?"

Any wrinkles would distort the signal worse than the posibility of oversized holes. And what beautiful young lady likes wrinkles on her fingernails?

(OK my atempt at humor is pathetic, I know. Just ask my ex-wife.)
POP
 
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yet more ideas

ikki,
I've been thinking about using my Sadoun 6 ft prime focus dish for Ku. Just happen to have a Eagle Aspen P270 lnb with a C120 mount feedhorn/scalar. P270 lnbs have dual connections making it simple to use with a multiswitch.

Here's a suggestion for your mesh dish: Very light glass cloth cut to fit & then spray resin to make it adhere to the mesh. I have some cloth here that is very tight weave, .007-.008" thick, 60" in width. I have at least 15 ft on the roll.
I got for free at work because it was too dated for Milspec.

If you'd like I could send a piece of the cloth to you in an envelope. PM your mailing address & I'll send the sample.:)
 

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As soon as my KU LNBF arrives I will see if this dish is usable. If it isnt, because of the mesh holes, then I will have to figure out a new plan.
 
segment seams

The 6' dishes have an issue on Ku because of the seems. 1mm surface variation for Ku. You might try to cover the seems with aluminized duct tape.
Thanks for that insight.
Another thing I noticed is that not all the segments were stamped out evenly. I'll have to look mine over more closely.
 
Seams in a 6' dish won't have ANY noticeable affect on how well it works. The total area attributable to these seams can't be more than a half percent of the total area of the dish, so losing less than 1% of the possible signal is pretty much meaningless. You lose more than that from the feed support arms and feed blocking some signal, and it's all made up by the increased size of the dish.

And even the biggest mesh holes I have ever seen on a mesh dish won't have more than maybe 5-10% effect, and if you have a dish that is bigger, you more than make up for that via the increased size. I think this whole rule of thumb thing with the pencil or pencil lead thing has been blown way out of proportion, and actually, the hole size isn't even the main parameter used to determine loss due to mesh. Actually it's the mesh spacing divided by the diameter of the wire or metal, and the spacing divided by the wavelength. Of course the hole size is related since the spacing is hole size plus wire size, however big holes can be offset by bigger wires. My old 10' Orbitron has holes that are about 3 mm and the metal is about 0.4 mm. That 3 mm is bigger than any pencil lead I have in the house, but when new, that Orbitron performed significantly better than my 3' dish. It's main problem on Ku was that the low F/D made the feedhorn only see the middle half of the dish. If you use commonly used nomographs with the above data, it predicts about a 0.28 dB loss in gain due to mesh size, with only about 7% loss of signal. That 7% loss of signal is more than made up by the increased size of the dish.

Bottom line is that by far the biggest parameter relative to whether a dish will work on Ku is the SHAPE of the dish, and if the shape is bad, it's not going to do any good to cover it with finer mesh, screen, reflective film, because the shape will still be bad. If the shape is already good, you're only going to make it worse by messing with it, and the most you are likely to gain is 5-10%.


Now, if you do the pencil test, and the whole pencil goes through, not just the lead, then the loss gets more significant, but it's still not like you lose all Ku, you'r just going to lose some percentage of the signal, and if the shape is good, that can be made up by the increased size of the dish. But finer mesh or increased size is NOT going to make up for bad shape.
 
Now, if you do the pencil test, and the whole pencil goes through, not just the lead, then the loss gets more significant, but it's still not like you lose all Ku, you'r just going to lose some percentage of the signal, and if the shape is good, that can be made up by the increased size of the dish. But finer mesh or increased size is NOT going to make up for bad shape.
So, carefully doing a string test & visual inspection of the dish contour ought to be considered above mesh hole size provided the mesh is fine enough.
If ikki's 6ft dish has a good shape, no panels with dinged,dented or creased mesh, no distorted segments, it could work for Ku.
When he tries the new lnbf, more will be revealed.:)
 
I've never had an issue with my Sadoun 6 footer and KU....heck its in my signature :)

When I want to make sure that weak signal (on the 36") doesnt go out the 6 footer has saved me countless times :)
 
Digital signals DVB

Seams in a 6' dish won't have ANY noticeable affect on how well it works. The total area attributable to these seams can't be more than a half percent of the total area of the dish, so losing less than 1% of the possible signal is pretty much meaningless. You lose more than that from the feed support arms and feed blocking some signal, and it's all made up by the increased size of the dish.


Seams create a signal not in phase with main lobe and degrade the bit error rate of the signal.
 
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Seams create a signal not in phase with main lobe and degrade the bit error rate of the signal.

I think you missed B.J.'s point. The surface area of the seams is negligible when compared to the surface area of the dish, and perhaps even the shadowed area caused by the feed support poles on a prime-focus dish. Thus any out-of-phase signals reflected will cause a negligible decrease in CNR. Even this may be an overstatement because:

1. Even at Ku frequencies the displacement required to reflect a signal 180 degrees out-of-phase for maximum cancellation would be on the order of odd multiples of 6 mm. That's not an insignificant displacement. Granted there will be some cancellation at other distances.

2. Seams rarely present themselves perfectly parallel to the true parabolic surface the dish approximates. Thus they may not reflect the target signal that well toward the feed.

What tends to kill the gain for Ku-band on prime-focus dishes are surface imperfections over the main portion of the reflector and poor f/D matching to the feed.
 
Cable head end Ku dishes

I think you missed B.J.'s point.

No I just don't agree.

All Ku Cable head end dishes and teleport dishes I've seen 6' or bigger using segmented construction have seams sealed. 1 mm is critical value for Ku. But your entitled to make subjective statments.
 
No I just don't agree.

All Ku Cable head end dishes and teleport dishes I've seen 6' or bigger using segmented construction have seams sealed. 1 mm is critical value for Ku. But your entitled to make subjective statments.

Sealing isn't for the reflectivity. It's for the strength of the dish.
 
No I just don't agree.

All Ku Cable head end dishes and teleport dishes I've seen 6' or bigger using segmented construction have seams sealed. 1 mm is critical value for Ku. But your entitled to make subjective statments.

I have no intention of starting a flame war, but I must point out your statements above are as subjective, or more so, than anything B.J. or I wrote. If you can offer an objective analysis that demonstrates or proves typical dish seams can measurably degrade Ku performance, I would be very interested to see this. In the meantime perhaps I might propose a reasonable example to the contrary.

Let's make a gross estimate of the loss seams might have on a prime-focus, segmented dish, such as a 1.8 m Fortec or similar design. The effective collection surface area of such a dish is about 2.5 m^2. Such dishes have six petals, or six seams that are slightly less than the radius of the dish (my Fortec has a center reflector plate that is probably of no consequence as it is shadowed for the most part by the feed and scalar ring).

My Fortec's seams are no wider than say 5mm and have somewhat of a "V" cross-section. The maximum depth of the V is only a few mm. However let's assume the maximum depth is 1/4 wavelength (about 6mm for Ku-band) for analysis ease. This means a signal bouncing off the bottom of the "V" will be 180 degrees out-of-phase with the predominant dish reflection. A smaller depth will not achieve as much cancellation.

In reality the target signal impinging on a perfect "V" surface will be reflected away from the feed and will neither contribute, nor detract from the gain of the rest of the dish. The seam collection area is about 0.027 m^2, which reduces the collection area of our previously calculated 2.5 m^2. This causes a loss of 0.047 dB of gain with respect to a perfect surface. This is roughly equivalent to a 1.79 m perfect dish and is completely negligible.

To take this to the absurd conclusion, let's assume by magic the "V" reflects all of the signal straight to the feed, with only a path difference. What effect does this cause? Nothing. Because of the carefully chosen depth, any reflection caused at a depth "d" will be cancelled out by the reflection from the "6mm - d" depth. If the depth is not an odd multiple of 1/4 wavelength, the seam will actually provide some gain.

A couple of other remarks:

1. There is no 'critical value' for dish design such as the 1 mm you suggest. Any local departure from a true paraboloid will cause some phase shift. A 1 mm error is about 1/25 of a wavelength at Ku frequencies, and will result in about a 30 degree phase error. That's fairly small, but somewhat less or more will not change the performance by much.

2. As whatchel1 points out, the sealing of seams in commercial dishes improves the structural integrity of the dish. It also keeps out water, which happens to expand when frozen.
 
and Pendragon, one more thought to add to this .... the LNBF is probably more than 1mm from flat or focus to the exact focal piont of the dish. Every breeze that wiggles the dish or any part of it will displace the focal point or the dish aim by more than 1mm.
 
The KU band LNFB arrived and IF the rain the ever stops I will replace the C Band unit and see what kind of fun results I get.
 
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Looking for KU 6 feet Offset dish.

hello everybody

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