Broadcasters Petition FCC for ATSC 3.0 Rollout

[Mr Tony]

Yeah thanks forgot about my favorite lil buddy from nexstar. They did a good job on their newsteam. I met 2 of them last week.

Please tell me you didnt act like a buffoon
I had a buddy who met some people from KVRR (FOX Fargo) and at the time their news still wasnt HD (couple years ago) and they had some real crappy syndicated stuff. He meets some news folks at of all things a HS football game and made a complete jackwagon of himself in front of them complaining about their channel

 

[localclassictvfan]

Please tell me you didnt act like a buffoon
I had a buddy who met some people from KVRR (FOX Fargo) and at the time their news still wasnt HD (couple years ago) and they had some real crappy syndicated stuff. He meets some news folks at of all things a HS football game and made a complete jackwagon of himself in front of them complaining about their channel

Heck no. I'm more than greatful Nexstar spent money to give is the NBC affiliate. I told them that it was a pleasure introducing myself to them and how nexstar did a great job in getting the nbc on klaf and the news is becoming a hit on the market already. The guy has worked at one of the stations in the Lafayette area already. The lady said that they have been getting alot of positive feedback from viewers with the new newsteam and being an NBC affiliate as well. However she did say that a couple folks dont like Nexstar because they dont subchannel and some other thimgs. I'm like oh really wow I had to laugh for a moment. I told her that bringing the NBC to the market was the best thing Nexstar did for Lafayette. KADN is the biggest thing to nexstar at this moment. I told them both that it was nice meeting them and will watch the newscast again. I wanted to mentioned the nexstar sale with Media General and asking if Scripps was buying KLAF but between the meeting them and the two laidies I was with, I put that on the backburner and never thought of mentioning it.

 

[Mr Tony]

If it was some newspeople you spoke with they probably had no knowledge of the Nexstar/MG thing.

What I find funny is I've run into newscasters and to me they are just normal people. I guess when I worked at Mall of America and had sports stars/legends come in all the time I was use to it. But then you get the people,who freak out. A few months ago at the high school I saw the lead anchor for our local CBS (his kid was in a basketball tourney) and when I ran into him I say Hi, shook his hand and said I enjoy watching the newscast (which I do). I see some people freak out like these teens do over a "musician"

I just walked away and chuckled.

 

[harshness]

Are you sure?
What does this article say? http://www.tvtechnology.com/news/0002/nab-cta-pubcasters-ask-fcc-for-voluntary-atsc-30/278460

Do you believe everything you see on World Wide Web?

I'm absolutely not certain but I'm trying to apply some basic reasoning: If it did involve Internet Protocol (IP) on top of OFDM (Orthogonal Frequency-Division Multiplexing) inside the tuner, that would be an utter waste of resources.

IP was developed to move packets between large independent networks and that's insane in the context of a TV tuner where there are only a few places that the data might go. It would be kind of like setting up a CAT5e wired LAN to connect a keyboard module, mouse module, display module and a NAS to create a single personal computer to replace much simpler and cheaper USB techology. See more at Raspberry Pi.

 

[jxg0754]

Do you believe everything you see on World Wide Web?

I'm absolutely not certain but I'm trying to apply some basic reasoning: If it did involve Internet Protocol (IP) on top of OFDM (Orthogonal Frequency-Division Multiplexing) inside the tuner, that would be an utter waste of resources.

IP was developed to move packets between large independent networks and that's insane in the context of a TV tuner where there are only a few places that the data might go. It would be kind of like setting up a CAT5e wired LAN to connect a keyboard module, mouse module, display module and a NAS to create a single personal computer to replace much simpler and cheaper USB techology. See more at Raspberry Pi.

Could you please specify what version of USB technology you are talking about?
http://www.usb.org

 

[harshness]

Could you please specify what version of USB technology you are talking about?
http://www.usb.org

The kind that is commonly used to connect mice, keyboards, display subsystems and mass storage devices to computers. IIRC, the display subsystem may require USB 2.0 but the rest work okay with USB 1.0.

I wasn't proposing that USB should be used to carry the streams; simply that using Internet Protocol to transport incoming OTA within a TV receiver is asinine.

Do you see where such enormous overhead would be beneficial?

 

[Trip]

I'm not entirely sure why my post went ignored, but the standard is IP-based, just like ATSC-MH was. The fact of the matter is that most modern devices, at this point, already support IP in some form or fashion, with smart TVs and similar devices all having support for IP technologies. I'm not entirely sure where you are getting this idea that recycling IP support already found in TVs for ATSC 3.0 will add any overhead at all.

Your USB analogy is off. It's more like arguing that instead of using USB for keyboards and mice that we should stick with PS/2 because it has "less overhead." While that may or may not be strictly true, the USB ports and support would be in the computer anyway for other devices, so why not use what's already there instead of future new equipment implementing a separate port just for keyboards and mice?

Do you believe everything you see on World Wide Web?

Why do you believe NAB/APTS/CTA/AWARN are all lying to the FCC in their joint filing requesting approval of ATSC 3.0? http://www.nab.org/documents/newsRoom/pdfs/041316_NextGenTV_Rulemaking_Petition.pdf

- Trip

 

[Mr Tony]

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/news/local-tv/nab-2016-lot-firsts-atsc-30/155660

NAB 2016: A Lot of Firsts for ATSC 3.0
First-ever live broadcasts, emergency alert tests and new hardware were introduced to open the NAB Show

 

[localclassictvfan]

If it was some newspeople you spoke with they probably had no knowledge of the Nexstar/MG thing.

What I find funny is I've run into newscasters and to me they are just normal people. I guess when I worked at Mall of America and had sports stars/legends come in all the time I was use to it. But then you get the people,who freak out. A few months ago at the high school I saw the lead anchor for our local CBS (his kid was in a basketball tourney) and when I ran into him I say Hi, shook his hand and said I enjoy watching the newscast (which I do). I see some people freak out like these teens do over a "musician"

I just walked away and chuckled.

Yeah I know. Its like a blast talking with these news personalities. Also your right they probably dont know about the media merger with Nexstar.

 

[localclassictvfan]

I'm not entirely sure why my post went ignored, but the standard is IP-based, just like ATSC-MH was. The fact of the matter is that most modern devices, at this point, already support IP in some form or fashion, with smart TVs and similar devices all having support for IP technologies. I'm not entirely sure where you are getting this idea that recycling IP support already found in TVs for ATSC 3.0 will add any overhead at all.

Your USB analogy is off. It's more like arguing that instead of using USB for keyboards and mice that we should stick with PS/2 because it has "less overhead." While that may or may not be strictly true, the USB ports and support would be in the computer anyway for other devices, so why not use what's already there instead of future new equipment implementing a separate port just for keyboards and mice?



Why do you believe NAB/APTS/CTA/AWARN are all lying to the FCC in their joint filing requesting approval of ATSC 3.0? http://www.nab.org/documents/newsRoom/pdfs/041316_NextGenTV_Rulemaking_Petition.pdf

- Trip

No offense but he (harshness) seems to think he knows everything. Then replies to peoples post with an attitude problem. Evidently he struck out twice on a couple of his threads, this being the most recent you just replied to. No Biggie It is what it is though. I'll leave it at that..

 

[harshness]

Why do you believe NAB/APTS/CTA/AWARN are all lying to the FCC in their joint filing requesting approval of ATSC 3.0? http://www.nab.org/documents/newsRoom/pdfs/041316_NextGenTV_Rulemaking_Petition.pdf

I'm not saying that they are lying. I'm saying that what they are saying is being misconstrued by many and they're not going out of their way to dispel the false assumptions.

There are many mentions of IP in the petition but most (if not all) of them relate to secondary services (aka "new services and capabilities"). On page 10, they start talking about streaming to devices which I consider to be an entirely different issue absent the availability of TV band tuners (and the antennas necessary to receive VHF) in and on such devices. To me this speaks of simulcasting over the Internet delivered through existing Wi-fi and mobile networks where IP is the medium.

Once you get into the gory technical details, IP is no longer part of the discussion and they're talking about modulating and demodulating in the RF domain.

 

[jxg0754]

Here is another article that was just published today about ATSC 3.0 at NAB 2016
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/news/local-tv/nab-2016-lot-firsts-atsc-30/155660
ATSC 3.0 is basically it's own private internet for TV, Kinda like AT&T U-Verse, but other features like a different language audio, or different camera angle's feeds like in sports would come from the internet.
You can watch say Youtube on your phone, ATSC 3.0 actuallly has a mobile capability .
Streaming services can also be viewed on a phone so to a certain extent ATSC 3.0 could also be say a one way LTE network or even a one way AT&T U-verse and like how cable modems started it can use your LTE/Cable/DSL/Fiber Internet connection to request say some content that is from a ATSC 3.0 station instead of a dial up connection

 

[harshness]

Streaming services can also be viewed on a phone so to a certain extent ATSC 3.0 could also be say a one way LTE network or even a one way AT&T U-verse and like how cable modems started it can use your LTE/Cable/DSL/Fiber Internet connection to request say some content that is from a ATSC 3.0 station instead of a dial up connection

If you already have a relatively high speed connection, what is the motivation to add a downlink-only connection that requires something as invasive as a TV antenna and independent cabling? If everyone had a high likelihood of great OTA reception, this might be interesting. As it is, those eligible for OTA are likely to remain a relatively small minority who typically have access to much better (higher speed and more flexible) options.

Real-time PPV has dollar signs in the NAB's eyes to be sure, but I'm dubious about going much beyond that.

 

[jxg0754]

Ever heard of SFN (Single Frequency Network) that is to be a part of ATSC 3.0
Here are three article links
http://www.tvtechnology.com/news/0002/one-media-conducts-atsc-30-concept-sfn-trials/278232
http://www.tvnewscheck.com/article/...eed-ATSC-3-0-SFN-Tests-Underway-In-Balt-Wash-
http://www.tvnewscheck.com/article/94077/atsc-30-will-bring-tv-to-inflection-point/
As far as Antennas go read here about LG's new Antenna
http://www.gizmag.com/lg-next-generation-broadcast-antenna-atsc-3/42891/
Finally here's a good description of NAB's Real-Time PPV dollar signs
http://www.nab.org/whyNAB/default.asp

 

[hancox]

Please tell me you didnt act like a buffoon
I had a buddy who met some people from KVRR (FOX Fargo) and at the time their news still wasnt HD (couple years ago) and they had some real crappy syndicated stuff. He meets some news folks at of all things a HS football game and made a complete jackwagon of himself in front of them complaining about their channel

I would probably do that if i met one of our affiliate's people. (LIN-owned and an engineering trainwreck)

 

[Trip]

I'm not saying that they are lying. I'm saying that what they are saying is being misconstrued by many and they're not going out of their way to dispel the false assumptions.

There are many mentions of IP in the petition but most (if not all) of them relate to secondary services (aka "new services and capabilities"). On page 10, they start talking about streaming to devices which I consider to be an entirely different issue absent the availability of TV band tuners (and the antennas necessary to receive VHF) in and on such devices. To me this speaks of simulcasting over the Internet delivered through existing Wi-fi and mobile networks where IP is the medium.

Once you get into the gory technical details, IP is no longer part of the discussion and they're talking about modulating and demodulating in the RF domain.

Actually, in the gory technical details, ATSC 3.0 will use an IP base as opposed to ATSC 1.0's MPEG-2 Transport Stream base. There's a discussion of it in the March 2016 IEEE Transactions on Broadcasting beginning on page 328.

The petition to the FCC references other services primarily, but I'm sure "replacing underlying technology X that politicians and lawyers don't understand with underlying technology Y that politicians and lawyers don't understand" isn't really a selling point when you're trying to get a new standard approved. The document is much more of a sales pitch than a technical document.

- Trip

 

[FaT Air]

As far as Antennas go read here about LG's new Antenna
http://www.gizmag.com/lg-next-generation-broadcast-antenna-atsc-3/42891/

What part of the spectrum are they going to 'open up' to incorporate more wifi channels? There's only a limited number of them now. Between me and the neighbors I think there's only one channel not in use that is not adjacent to another on 2.4 Ghz..

 

[navychop]

Does ATSC 3 have any advantages over DVB-T?

 

[Trip]

Does ATSC 3 have any advantages over DVB-T?

Yes. It gets closer to the Shannon limit and has a lot of interesting new things in it like non-uniform constellations which are supposed to make the signal more robust. It's also designed to be more future-proof than past standards because the bootstrap layer is designed to have other technologies stand on top of it.

There's a lot more, but those are just some highlights.

- Trip

 

[harshness]

Ever heard of SFN (Single Frequency Network) that is to be a part of ATSC 3.0

In product development, I think they call this coat-tailing. Pick a buzz-topic (in this case ATSC 3.0) and make sure your product announcements make an inextricable connection to it.

If SFN has been around for 13 years, has it been waiting for something like one of the aspects of ATSC 3.0 to actually work or is it another innovation that looked good on paper but the developers couldn't create a perfect storm of engineering, technology and politics? Remember Wi-max?

Does someone offer a roadmap of how this is all supposed to come together?