Blu-ray sales top HD-DVD

[JoeSp]

Nope, the sound capability is right out of the box. Now you can only get that thru the HDMI port but I have read that HDMI 1.1 supports PCM and HDMI 1.2 supports 5.1 TrueDolby (providing the player decodes and the PS3 currently decodes TrueDolby -- but nothing is out yet using that codec). It reads DVD so I would guess it would do DVD-Audio. Someone else would have to chime in here on that one. There currently is nothing a standalone can currently do that the PS3 cannot except for the 24FPS but that is coming. Right now, except for the 24FPS (Both the Sony and Pioneer do 24FPS) the PS3 is the most complete BD player on the market.

navychop -- for you reading pleasure -- the Sound and Vison review of the PS3 as a BluRay player - enjoy:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hd-dvd-bluray/1927/shootout-3-blu-ray-disc-players.html

 

[navychop]

Thank you. I've read the specs online- no DVD-audio. Sony pushes the competing SACD, so it'll be a cold day before they support DVD-audio.

So no optical/coax audio support? I'd need a new receiver. That's a year down the road.

 

[JoeSp]

I am waiting on the new Denon's this summer. The 3800 series will have HDMI 1.3 and will decode both TrueDolbyHD and DTSMaster. Along with this they will be using a new chip to do upconversions. Also it will do 1 to 1 1080p pass thru the HDMI. This receiver is gonna rock. I replace equipment every five years and this year it is the receiver's turn.

 

[navychop]

At first I thought you meant the DVD-3800 DVD player, which won't play DVD+R+RW. But now I realize you are referring to the receiver, as you clearly stated.

Looks good to me. I'll keep it in mind, as I plan to upgrade the receiver in another year, after I first upgrade my speakers. Maybe I'll move up the receiver date, too.

 

[teachsac]

HDMI 1.3 is the only version that will pass DolbyTrueHD. Previous versions of HDMi will pass PCM. Currently TrueHD and DTS HD are decoded by the player and passed as LPCM to the player.

At this point having a receiver that decodes Dolby TrueHD and DTSHD really doesn't matter. The receiver needs access to the disc to decode the soundtrack. Currently this is not available on either format.

From Dolby Labs: http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/trueHD/AVRs/trueHD_avrs_3.html

Dolby TrueHD and Dolby Digital Plus in A/V Receivers
Eventually, A/V receivers will have direct access to Dolby® Digital Plus or Dolby TrueHD bitstreams. We are working with the IEC and HDMI organizations to update data protocols to enable future versions of these high-bandwidth interfaces to carry these bitstreams.

To decode these bitstreams, the A/V decoder will need to support the updated data protocols, as well as incorporate these new decoding algorithms. In addition, it will be necessary to select HD discs in which the content maker has permitted the core 5.1 or 7.1 audio bitstreams to bypass the player’s mixing process and be sent directly to the digital outputs of the player. We expect that certain HD discs will permit this, but they may represent a minority of titles. In the end, the sound quality will be essentially the same as that of audio decoded within the player as PCM signals and transported through a current-generation HDMI connection to the A/V receiver.
With six or eight channels of 24-bit/96 kHz audio to handle from these new HD formats, the post-processing DSP requirements for an A/V receiver more than double. Rather than devoting the considerable DSP resources to decoding the core audio signals within the A/V processor itself, it may be more fruitful to use the A/V processor’s DSP resources to perform high-resolution post-processing such as bass management, room or speaker equalization, Dolby Pro Logic® IIx decoding, or other types of digital signal processing.

S~

 

[BobMurdoch]

According to DVDEmpire, a source that tracks their live sales data..... BluRay had 60% of the HD Media sales in February with HD DVD having 40%. The figures have reversed this month. I don't know whether that is due to preorders or shipment of product available, but it does signify that there is a potential shift coming... either for the March figures or for the longer term...

The longer this drags out, the greater the likelihood that neither wins.... And we wind up with another SACD/DVD Audio....

 

[teachsac]

According to DVDEmpire, a source that tracks their live sales data..... BluRay had 60% of the HD Media sales in February with HD DVD having 40%. The figures have reversed this month. I don't know whether that is due to preorders or shipment of product available, but it does signify that there is a potential shift coming... either for the March figures or for the longer term...

The longer this drags out, the greater the likelihood that neither wins.... And we wind up with another SACD/DVD Audio....

I think it might have more to do with Amazon's 50% off sale. Consumers are probably more likely to buy from one site rather than split orders. You lose any price advantage paying a second shipping cost. Many consumers also get the 10% discount in addition.

S~

 

[BobMurdoch]

But that doesn't affect DVDEmpire's numbers.... unless Amazon has a huge BluRay only sale and DVDEmpire's sales are affected...

 

[teachsac]

But that doesn't affect DVDEmpire's numbers.... unless Amazon has a huge BluRay only sale and DVDEmpire's sales are affected...

Amazon has 46 titles on sale for 50% off. COnsumers that buy from DVD Empire just might be switching to Amazon for the time being. During this time, Amazon's BR sales have increased.

S~

 

[navychop]

Plus, Amazon probably sells many times more than DVDEmpire, so Amazon figures seem more consistent with the "whole market" figures posted (post #15). I think DVDEmpire is more of an HD-DVD source. They are connected to/selling adult DVDs, which includes (to date) HD-DVD adult titles.

 

[JoeSp]

HDMI 1.3 is the only version that will pass DolbyTrueHD. Previous versions of HDMi will pass PCM. Currently TrueHD and DTS HD are decoded by the player and passed as LPCM to the player.

At this point having a receiver that decodes Dolby TrueHD and DTSHD really doesn't matter. The receiver needs access to the disc to decode the soundtrack. Currently this is not available on either format.

From Dolby Labs: http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/trueHD/AVRs/trueHD_avrs_3.html

Dolby TrueHD and Dolby Digital Plus in A/V Receivers
Eventually, A/V receivers will have direct access to Dolby® Digital Plus or Dolby TrueHD bitstreams. We are working with the IEC and HDMI organizations to update data protocols to enable future versions of these high-bandwidth interfaces to carry these bitstreams.

To decode these bitstreams, the A/V decoder will need to support the updated data protocols, as well as incorporate these new decoding algorithms. In addition, it will be necessary to select HD discs in which the content maker has permitted the core 5.1 or 7.1 audio bitstreams to bypass the player’s mixing process and be sent directly to the digital outputs of the player. We expect that certain HD discs will permit this, but they may represent a minority of titles. In the end, the sound quality will be essentially the same as that of audio decoded within the player as PCM signals and transported through a current-generation HDMI connection to the A/V receiver.
With six or eight channels of 24-bit/96 kHz audio to handle from these new HD formats, the post-processing DSP requirements for an A/V receiver more than double. Rather than devoting the considerable DSP resources to decoding the core audio signals within the A/V processor itself, it may be more fruitful to use the A/V processor’s DSP resources to perform high-resolution post-processing such as bass management, room or speaker equalization, Dolby Pro Logic® IIx decoding, or other types of digital signal processing.

S~

The PS3 is capable of passing both TrueDolbyHD and DTSMasterHD unproccessed thru the HDMI 1.3 to a HDMI 1.3 receiver that can do the decoding in the AVR. Hence the Denon's 3800 series to the rescue. The Denon can also accept a processed signal from either codec too. I am telling you these new Denons are absolutely going to rock!!!

 

[teachsac]

The PS3 is capable of passing both TrueDolbyHD and DTSMasterHD unproccessed thru the HDMI 1.3 to a HDMI 1.3 receiver that can do the decoding in the AVR. Hence the Denon's 3800 series to the rescue. The Denon can also accept a processed signal from either codec too. I am telling you these new Denons are absolutely going to rock!!!

Where to start. First of all, I agree with you about Denon products. I have an old 3200 that I use in the bedroom since all that I need is the optical connection for audio and a 4806 I use in the family room hooked up to the panasonic. Second, I'm not saying the PS3 is great, nor am I saying it's junk. It is a good BD player and is very fexible with its Cell processor.

That being said, you do have some misunderstandings in your post. Let's Start with DTS-HD Master Audio. DTS-HD and DTS-HD MA are two separate codecs. DTS-HD is similar to its Dolby counterpart DD+. Both are very nice improvements over their predecessors but still lossy. The PS3 does not support Master audio at this time. It is expected by users but has not been announced. If it does get added that would be great for the PS3. I honestly hope it does. It would be the only player that could properly handle Fox titles like X-men. Why they would add a DTS HD master track when it's not supported and not uncompressed 5.1 I don't know. Oh yeah, it's a 25 Gb disc.

Next is HDMI 1.3, You are correct in saying that HDMI 1.3 can pass Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA. You have a misunderstanding on how the PS3 handles it. Let's start with advanced authoring of high definition discs. Advanced authoring requires that both formats do the decoding within the players. This is written onto the discs. This was done purposely since no receivers currently handle these advanced codecs. However, they do handle LPCM since this has been used for quite some time. Whether these alogorithms are authored onto the discs or not in the future, we'll have to wait and see. My bet is exactly what Dolby Labs said, some will, but only a minority.

According to the PS3 manual, AVS, etc. this is how the PS3 handles audio. It supports DD, DTS, 7.1 channel LPCM, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS-HD. If the master audio track on the disc is uncompressed 5.1 or 7.1, LPCM will take that bit for bit to the receiver for post processing. As for Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD, the player does the decoding, and sends it out over PCM to the receiver for post-processing. Straight from the owner's manual. Again it will depend on the discs authoring whether or not in the future, receivers will have access to the raw HD bitstream.

*1 A device compatible with Linear PCM 7.1 Ch. is required to output 7.1 Ch. audio, supported by Dolby TrueHD or a similar format, from the HDMI OUT connector.
*2 This system does not support output from the DTS-HD 7.1 Ch. DTS-HD 7.1 Ch. audio is output from a 5.1 or lower channel.

As Dolby said, the sound quality will be essentially the same. When these new receivers come out, we'll talk more.

Enjoy your player.

S~

 

[bommai]

Some of your post is incorrect. The new Multi channel audio can be sent out as bitstream through HDMI, just not through TOSlink. Bitstream sends the raw data while LPCM sends the PCM data. The onboard decoder is used for PCM while the onboard decoder is bypassed for bitstream.

 

[teachsac]

Caught my mistake. I got no sleep last night. Twins were sick.

Joe,

I am going to a Denon training on Thursday. Any questions?

S~

 

[JoeSp]

Yes, is the new Denon 3800 series going to use the new (I'm not sure if I have this right) SQV (?) chip for upconversion? I know that the flagship is going to use it but will the new 3800 series use it. Also, will the Denon be able to pass 24FPS or convert 24 FPS to 30 or 60 FPS? Will you be able to set each input (speaker wise) for the HDMI inputs? Kind of like having differant settings for the HD imputs on your HDTV. Would be really cool if you could have seperate settings for each HDMI input. Also, when are they going to be on the market. I have heard early July but I have not found confirmation of that. Maybe you can consolidate some of my questions. Thanks for asking me you lucky dog. I hope you get to play with some of the new receivers.

Oh yeah, one more question, will the new interface show up over the HDMI inputs?

 

[BobMurdoch]

According to DVDEmpire, a source that tracks their live sales data..... BluRay had 60% of the HD Media sales in February with HD DVD having 40%. The figures have reversed this month. I don't know whether that is due to preorders or shipment of product available, but it does signify that there is a potential shift coming... either for the March figures or for the longer term...

The longer this drags out, the greater the likelihood that neither wins.... And we wind up with another SACD/DVD Audio....

Wow, it flipped back the day Casino Royale came out.

New releases will do that.. inspire sales..... It's hard to get worked up about Bullitt..... (and I love the movie and already own it on DVD... not worth buying it twice though)

 

[navychop]

Yes. But I can't help but believe it is based on a very small number of sales.

 

[BobMurdoch]

Actually the BluRay version of Casino Royale ranked #8 overall in units sold. The widescreen standard DVD version was #1, the fullscreen version was #10.

Those figures were based on IMDB.com (I think the link is over at the Digital Bits if you are curious)

 

[teachsac]

Yes, is the new Denon 3800 series going to use the new (I'm not sure if I have this right) SQV (?) chip for upconversion? I know that the flagship is going to use it but will the new 3800 series use it. Also, will the Denon be able to pass 24FPS or convert 24 FPS to 30 or 60 FPS? Will you be able to set each input (speaker wise) for the HDMI inputs? Kind of like having differant settings for the HD imputs on your HDTV. Would be really cool if you could have seperate settings for each HDMI input. Also, when are they going to be on the market. I have heard early July but I have not found confirmation of that. Maybe you can consolidate some of my questions. Thanks for asking me you lucky dog. I hope you get to play with some of the new receivers.

Oh yeah, one more question, will the new interface show up over the HDMI inputs?

Ok Joe,

SOme good news and bad news came out of yesterday. They were more focused on the CI than the specs of the receivers. The new Denon line 3808 and 4308 should be out some time in July. They will have HDMI 1.3 and SHOULD pass 1080p/24 natively. The bad news.....

Acorrding to what was said yesterday, they will not have the Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD decoders. They said still a lot of technical difficulties and it might be a year. I know this is contrary to the leaks that have been put out. The person who went with me yesterday (owns the business sales end, I only do contract custom design for him) is going to call the designer and try to find out for sure. So it looks like possibly player decoding and being sent LPCM and not sending bitstream and receiver decoding.

Basically the whole A/V industry is a total mess. BD, HDDVD, and HDMI have burned a lot of bridges with the audio manufacturers. There are standards, but no standardization. Specs constantly changing and they are tired of trying to keep up. That is why most high end systems don't have HDMI connectors. I'm talking Lexicon, BK, etc. not Pioneer, Denon.

If I hear any more, I'll let you know.

S~

 

[navychop]

Who was it that said "The great thing about standards is there are so many of them"?

Looks like my receiver upgrade might be in late '08 after all.