Best Way to Receive Whole Ku Arc With Fixed Dishes?

[gabshere]

yes that should work but like you mentioned if they needed it at the same time
i don't know much about the multiswitches are they powered ? do they supply power when not selected ?

thats why i asked if both polarities were needed when i was thinking about it several sats just needed one polarity ( for the channels i wanted on c-band & ku) so some sats will only require one polarity thus only taking one port of the multiswitch.

i got to thinking after i wrote that that your porbably wanting both polarties for your scanning side hobby hence the dual & the dual seperate h & v and or bandstacked would work best

 

[linuxman]

yes that should work but like you mentioned if they needed it at the same time

Might as well bite the bullet and get the proper LNBF.

i don't know much about the multiswitches are they powered ? do they supply power when not selected ?

The best way would be to used powered multi-switches. Save a lot of work on the receivers especially DVB computer cards.

thats why i asked if both polarities were needed when i was thinking about it several sats just needed one polarity ( for the channels i wanted on c-band & ku) so some sats will only require one polarity thus only taking one port of the multiswitch.

i got to thinking after i wrote that that your porbably wanting both polarties for your scanning side hobby hence the dual & the dual seperate h & v and or bandstacked would work best

Yes, You know me, if it is there, might as well be able to "see" what's on it.

Well here is my layout plan number two. Even putting 4 LNBFs on a dish, I would still need at least 8 dishes.

I currently have 7 - 84es, and 2 - 75es. I currently have 5 non-pen mounts for those dishes. I would need to pick up at least 3 more non-pen mounts.

Take a look at what I have here Keith, George and others, and tell me what I need to do differently.

From East to West

Dish 1
30W (Hispasat) using oem primestar lnbf with h/v outputs
43W (IS-3R) using oem primestar lnbf with h/v outputs
I think it might be possible to get both these on one dish at 13 degrees apart by not having an LNBF in the center, and they will be far enough apart to use these bigger LNBFs. Dish center would be aimed approximately at 36W.

Dish 2
72W (AMC6)
74W (H2 AKA SBS6)
79W (AMC5)
83W (AMC9)
Would need the dual output tiny LNBFs. Use no LNBF in the center and aim center of dish at 76.5W, might get all 4 of these on one dish. 72W will be a tight squeeze.

If 72W doesn't work out on Dish 2, I might need a separate dish and combine 72W with Estrela at 61 which would allow use of oem Primestar LNBFs.

Dish 3
87W (AMC3)
91W (G17 AKA G11)
95W (G3)
99W (G16 AKA G4)
I know this would work fine. I have an 84e with 87W and 97W working right now. I would need to get the dual output tiny LNBFs for this setup. No LNBF in center and center of dish would be aimed at 93W.

Dish 4
85W (AMC2)
89W (G28 AKA IA8)
93W (G26 AKA IA6)
EDIT: Saw some errors and corrected.
97W (G25 AKA IA5)
Again no center LNBF and center of dish aimed at 91W.

Dish 5
103 (AMC1)
107.3 (AnikF1) Optional
110 (Dish 110) Optional
Center of dish aimed at 105W approx.

Dish 6
101 (AMC)
105W (AMC15)
111.1 (AnikF2) Optional
119 (Dish 119) Optional
Center of dish aimed at 107W

Dish 7
121W (Dish 121)
125W (AMC21)
129W (G27 AKA IA7)
148W (Dish 148) Optional
Center of dish aimed at 127W

Dish 8
123W (G18 AKA G10)
127W (Horizon 1) Optional not much on it.
Could use oem Primestar LNBFs.

Optional Dish 1
113 (Satmex6)
116.8 (Satmex5)

The next simplest step would be to find at least one 6 foot Prodelin dish to cover the Western half of the arc virtually eliminating the need to have an LNBF spaced every 4 degrees. I know where there is one I can get, just have to time it right with weather, health, and help.

 

[Anole]

Looks like spacing 'em out and interleaving birds across multiple dishes makes for a pretty workable solution.
Lets you fall back to larger-feedhorn LNBFs. (regular kind, as opposed to the mini ones)
Somebody (think it was Stogie) once posted some pictures of Primestars with two original feedhorns on 'em.
Might be worth digging up that thread and giving it a read 'n a look.

What is the focal length of the 84e, and any other dish you are proposing?
Do any of those dishes skew, or is it up to the LNBs to be located high 'n low, as appropriate?

You'll be needing multiple copies of whatever bracket idea ya come up with, too.
Probably want to find a clever and inexpensive one. - :up

 

[linuxman]

Looks like spacing 'em out and interleaving birds across multiple dishes makes for a pretty workable solution.
Lets you fall back to larger-feedhorn LNBFs. (regular kind, as opposed to the mini ones)

I could only use the oem (bigger) LNBFs on satellites that are at least 6 degrees apart. They are just too fat for 4 degree spacing.

Somebody (think it was Stogie) once posted some pictures of Primestars with two original feedhorns on 'em.
Might be worth digging up that thread and giving it a read 'n a look.

I'll see if I can find it.

What is the focal length of the 84e, and any other dish you are proposing?

Just did a quick measurement of 21-3/4" focal length.

Do any of those dishes skew, or is it up to the LNBs to be located high 'n low, as appropriate?

Dishes do not skew. LNBFs have to be skewed separately. You would also have to adjust height etc in accordance with position.

You'll be needing multiple copies of whatever bracket idea ya come up with, too.
Probably want to find a clever and inexpensive one. - :up

I am relying on my green friend from California to help me with that. Hint-Hint

I am leaning more and more towards acquiring at least one 6 foot Prodelin dish to help me out here.

The expense of the dual output LNBFs is staggering by itself. If I have to actually purchase another 3 non-pen mounts, that adds another $180.00 to the project. I have got to try and limit some of the outlay of cash on this thing.

 

[rv1pop]

SatelliteAV has the minibullet dual band on the website, I do not remember if there was a price, but it did say out of stock, so I would keep watching. Those will do 4° on the 36 in Fortec. But Green friend, how many will fit on a 75e and how close spacing can we get? And how close on the 1M P*?

 

[gabshere]

If I have to actually purchase another 3 non-pen mounts, that adds another $180.00 to the project. I have got to try and limit some of the outlay of cash on this thing.

my bucket mount would be a good option for any of the 84e & 75e dishes
and at a cost of $6 for bucket and $12 for concrete that $18 per mount

 

[Keith Brannen]

Well here is my layout plan number two. Even putting 4 LNBFs on a dish, I would still need at least 8 dishes.

List looks good, only thing I see is the 72 / 74 problem which, as you note, might be better served with a 61 / 72 dish. If that was the case, then I would move 87 to dish 2 (74, 79, 83, 87) and move 103 to dish 3 (91, 95, 99, 103) thereby eliminating dish 5 (unless you really want the optional 107.3 or 110, both are very strong so could be possibly be added on to other dishes, or added to the optional Satmex dish).

The next simplest step would be to find at least one 6 foot Prodelin dish to cover the Western half of the arc virtually eliminating the need to have an LNBF spaced every 4 degrees. I know where there is one I can get, just have to time it right with weather, health, and help.

How many satellites could the 6 foot Prodelin dish cover, and what is the minimum degree spacing could you use (with either the large or the small LNBs)? Might be the way to go to cut down on expenses.

 

[Anole]

How many satellites could the 6 foot Prodelin dish cover, and what is the minimum degree spacing could you use (with either the large or the small LNBs)?

I should know this but... what is the focal length of the 6' Prodelin?
We've got members with 'em, so that should be an answer we can get.
It might have even been in the specs I found, but that was a while ago, and since I still don't have the dish, that data is not at the tip of my tongue.

As to what sort of a spread ya can get with that dish, now -that- is the question! -

 

[osu1991]

Don't know if this would work, but just throwing it out there. How would the Birdview you found the other day, that was missing the arms and scaler, work as a multi lnb Ku dish?

Other than Dish and Directv dishes, I have never tried multi lnb setups, but I always get crazy ideas I don't have time to try out. This being one of them.

 

[Tron]

Another option for the LNBs would be to use stacked LNBs instead of dual output. JerryT did that with his T-90...

 

[phlatwound]

Instead of using individual NRPMs for each dish, what about using 1 NPRM on each end of a pipe, and have stubs sticking up off of the pipe for each dish?

2 of these rigs (4 NRPMs total) might handle all your Ku dishes, and even save you some "real estate" on top of that little tiny flat roof of yours.....then you can put up a few more BUDs!

 

[linuxman]

my bucket mount would be a good option for any of the 84e & 75e dishes
and at a cost of $6 for bucket and $12 for concrete that $18 per mount

Hey George,

Well it looks like I might have to turn to some alternative non-pen mounts. I just heard back from my lead on one of the 6 foot Prodelins I had my eye on. They recently had their roof redone on their building and it is leaking. They don't want anything disturbed on their roof until they get things settled with the roofing contractor for fear he will blame the leaks on removing the dish.

Can't say as I blame them, but that puts that dish on hold for at least 6 months.

Post some pics and links for your bucket mount George, so I can look them over.

List looks good, only thing I see is the 72 / 74 problem which, as you note, might be better served with a 61 / 72 dish. If that was the case, then I would move 87 to dish 2 (74, 79, 83, 87) and move 103 to dish 3 (91, 95, 99, 103) thereby eliminating dish 5 (unless you really want the optional 107.3 or 110, both are very strong so could be possibly be added on to other dishes, or added to the optional Satmex dish).

Thanks Keith,

I'll study that option over carefully but it looks like a real posibility.

How many satellites could the 6 foot Prodelin dish cover, and what is the minimum degree spacing could you use (with either the large or the small LNBs)? Might be the way to go to cut down on expenses.

I am told by a very reliable authority that the 6 foot Prodelins will easily do 20 degrees out from center with big fat signals.

That would be 91W to 129W and still get 148W if you wanted all on one dish and not have to squeeze anything.

I am definitely going to be out scouting for one of those.

Don't know if this would work, but just throwing it out there. How would the Birdview you found the other day, that was missing the arms and scaler, work as a multi lnb Ku dish?

Hey OSU,

Not as well as you might think. Prime focus dishes just don't work out for multi-lnbs the way you might think.

Another option for the LNBs would be to use stacked LNBs instead of dual output. JerryT did that with his T-90...

Hey Tron,

I've never done much reading or had much to do with band-stacked LNBFs. I'll need more research.

Instead of using individual NRPMs for each dish, what about using 1 NPRM on each end of a pipe, and have stubs sticking up off of the pipe for each dish?

Can you elaborate a little or draw something up. I am not quite following what you are saying, but at this point I am open to anything.

Thanks for all your suggestions. We'll get this project rolling yet.

 

[linuxman]

I got to thinking about what Phlatwound had to say, and I don't really know where he was headed for sure, but it got me to thinking about what I have and what could be done with them.

I went up and took some pics of the mounts so we could all see what we have to deal with here.

I have 5 of these bad boys that could be pressed into service, and am thinking that I can maybe get 2 dishes per mount. One on the front on a short pole, and one on the back on longer poles.

The mount without any blocks in it has a 48" pole, and the one with the blocks has a 22" pole.

I have several sections of 2-3/8" pipe, and a ten foot section of 2-1/8" pipe. I also have two factory made 2-3/8" mount pipe.

I would just need to re-arrange the support system between the pipes and secure all to the mounts.

What I am thinking is bolting all 5 mounts together in a straight line side by side with shorter pipes on the south end, and longer pipes on the north end and could have 10 dishes all on one big mount.

I also included a picture of my 87W - 97W dish with two LNBFs on it so we can see the width of the 84e as it sets on the mount, and also see how to devise a bracket for multiple LNBFs close together.

Let me know if you think it would work.

Here are the pics:

 

[phlatwound]

My thought was to set 2 NPRMs say 10'-12' apart, then run a pipe horizontally from one to the other.

Then, weld a series of vertical stubs of proper diameter and length (height), at whatever spacing is appropriate for your dish spacing.

You could do that with any number of NRPMs, just use one for a support as often as you need it...in a straight line...or a vee...or whatever configuration worked best on your roof.

 

[linuxman]

My thought was to set 2 NPRMs say 10'-12' apart, then run a pipe horizontally from one to the other.

Then, weld a series of vertical stubs of proper diameter and length (height), at whatever spacing is appropriate for your dish spacing.

You could do that with any number of NRPMs, just use one for a support as often as you need it...in a straight line...or a vee...or whatever configuration worked best on your roof.

Ahhhh!!!

I hadn't thought about doing it that way. I nice 2" piece of angle iron to set the stubs on might be better than a pipe. Perhaps more stable. Hmmmm!

That might be a better suggestion than trying to squeeze everything together on one big mount.

I'll have to give it some thought.

 

[phlatwound]

Ahhhh!!!

I hadn't thought about doing it that way. I nice 2" piece of angle iron to set the stubs on might be better than a pipe. Perhaps more stable. Hmmmm!

That might be a better suggestion than trying to squeeze everything together on one big mount.

I'll have to give it some thought.

Yes, angle could be easier to work with. I've done a little corral/fence building with pipe, so that was my first thought.....got real good at cutting "birdsmouths" for joining 2 pieces of perpendicular pipe.

I know you have access to a welder, but you could even build something like what I am talking about out of threaded pipe sections w/tees & elbows.......know any commercial plumbers?

 

[Keith Brannen]

I also included a picture of my 87W - 97W dish with two LNBFs on it so we can see the width of the 84e as it sets on the mount, and also see how to devise a bracket for multiple LNBFs close together.

Since I know absolutely nothing about NPRMs, I'll stick to what I do know, and that is multi-LNB brackets. It looks like the bracket you have used for 87 / 97 might work for a 4 LNB spread, at least for the outside LNBs. Judging by the photo, and assuming that each LNB is currently 5 degrees off-centre, there probably is enough room on the bracket to slide it the extra degree needed (or you'll need longer a longer bracket). The only concern I see (and again just by viewing the photo) is whether 2 degrees would be also on the slide part of the bracket (which would be good), or would be where the bolt is (which could be workable) or in "no-man's land" between the slide and the bolt!

 

[linuxman]

Since I know absolutely nothing about NPRMs, I'll stick to what I do know, and that is multi-LNB brackets. It looks like the bracket you have used for 87 / 97 might work for a 4 LNB spread, at least for the outside LNBs. Judging by the photo, and assuming that each LNB is currently 5 degrees off-centre, there probably is enough room on the bracket to slide it the extra degree needed (or you'll need longer a longer bracket). The only concern I see (and again just by viewing the photo) is whether 2 degrees would be also on the slide part of the bracket (which would be good), or would be where the bolt is (which could be workable) or in "no-man's land" between the slide and the bolt!

The two inner LNBFs are my greatest concern too. They will probably need to be about where the bolt holes are on the current support.

The object is to keep the same "height" of the support to optimize for elevation.

I have some items here that we might as well look at for ideas.

The following pictures are of SatelliteAV's dual-lnb holder, and SatelliteAV's multi-lnb bracket.

If there would be a way to adapt the dual and the multi-lnb slider, I think that would be perfect. If not, just a way to adapte the slider to the Primestar support.

Take a look at the pictures:



I was thinking about dis-assembling the dual bracket where the pivot bolt is and drilling a hole into the primstar support and bolting it there if there would be enough room on the outside to allow for the outside 2 lnbfs to still fit on there.

After looking at the slider, it might be possible to just use it and mount the two center lnbs on it and angle them for best signal.

Let me know what you think?

I am still thinking about the ideas for the non-pen mounts. If I can make Phlatwound's idea work and build it rigid, that might be the best solution.

Anole, I am going dish hunting today, and will try and get pictures and focal length for a 6 foot Prodelin dish today.

 

[Keith Brannen]

The two inner LNBFs are my greatest concern too. They will probably need to be about where the bolt holes are on the current support.

The object is to keep the same "height" of the support to optimize for elevation.

I have some items here that we might as well look at for ideas.

The following pictures are of SatelliteAV's dual-lnb holder, and SatelliteAV's multi-lnb bracket.

If there would be a way to adapt the dual and the multi-lnb slider, I think that would be perfect. If not, just a way to adapte the slider to the Primestar support.

I was thinking about dis-assembling the dual bracket where the pivot bolt is and drilling a hole into the primstar support and bolting it there if there would be enough room on the outside to allow for the outside 2 lnbfs to still fit on there.

After looking at the slider, it might be possible to just use it and mount the two center lnbs on it and angle them for best signal.

I agree that the dual LNB holder might work, except, as you note, the outside part might interfere with the LNB next to it to some degree, but that might be compensated by using your current method of an LNB holder for 87 / 97. One of the problems with spacing of LNBs is that the LNB holders (especially the location of the part with the screw on either side of the holder) interferes with the LNB beside it if anything less that 6 degrees.

As far as the other brackets/LNB holders, they might work, but you would have to check whether the angle of the LNB face would be correct. Like Primestars, my Star Choice dishes are also made by Channel Master. How similar they are I am not sure, but below are two photos of my SC 60e. In the first photo are the LNB holders where I bent some metal strips to get the correct angle for the LNB. In the second one (taken today) I quickly attached an LNB using a holder I got from a multi-LNB package (not the same as the packages you posted). As you can see, the angle of the LNB face is way off compared to the other LNBs (especially, the SC dual LNB). Those LNB holders are basically for a "normal" 80/90cm dish (even then they are also a bit off any of the original holders that came with my 80cm dishes). Anyhow, that is also something to watch for, though with spacers you probably could get the angles correct.

 

[gabshere]

I was going to recommend tripod bucket setup but since you & Phlatwound figured out that the NPRMS would do the same thing ( and you have those on hand ) that would be more cost effective with maybe using a bucket mount as a stabilizer (third leg). if you set it up you could set it up like a bowling pin stack. 4 dishes on the front row , two on the , and one dish on the stabilizer mount. that would be seven dishes . the middle row and single dish might have to be raised a bit to shoot over the front dishes.

__________Y__________
_________/_\__________
________Y___Y_________
_______/_____\________
______Y__Y__Y_Y_______

forgive my drawing