Baseball Hall of Fame welcomes the Hawk
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Didn't say it did, just stating the facts...
Sandra
OK.....then I will ask you, does that one year make you HOF worthy?
Of course not, calm down. I just said that because I don't think a lot of people remember it. And it is a little interesting that neither Blyleven or Morris have accomplished that.
Andy Pettitte should have won that year anyway...
Sandra
Of course not, calm down. I just said that because I don't think a lot of people remember it. And it is a little interesting that neither Blyleven or Morris have accomplished that.
Andy Pettitte should have won that year anyway...
Sandra
Totally calm....
if you look at careers as a whole....Blyleven has almost twice as many COMPLETE GAMES than Hentgen has WINS.....and the ERA is a full run better. Hentgen does not deserve to be in the same breath as Burt....no offense to Pat.
Morris has 40 complete games than Pat has wins, almost twice as many wins and a half a run better than Pat.
...just saying...
Totally calm....
if you look at careers as a whole....Blyleven has almost twice as many COMPLETE GAMES than Hentgen has WINS.....and the ERA is a full run better. Hentgen does not deserve to be in the same breath as Burt....no offense to Pat.
Morris has 40 complete games than Pat has wins, almost twice as many wins and a half a run better than Pat.
...just saying...
Nobody said Hentgen should be in any hall of fame discussion. There is no reason to compare Morris and Blyleven to Hentgen. There is no comparison.
It's just an interesting point that Hentgen did win a Cy Young award, and Morris and Blyleven did not...nothing more, nothing less. Time to move on now...
Sandra
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If pitching for a long time makes one an accumulator, so be it. How does a pitcher get 287 wins without taking the hill for years and accumulating them? Especially while pitching for some really poor teams that provided little in the way of run support. When given the chance to pitch post season, he was outstanding. His carreer ERA is outstanding, better than many HoF inductees. In my opinion, his curveball was the best of his era, and it did make him dominant.
Cy Young votes and All Star appearance numbers will be depressed when you toil in small markets. I expect the HoF voters to know better. In that, I am often disappointed.
In the end it does come down to opinion. I think we'll have to agree to disagree about Bert.
You make a good argument, and there are already plenty of accumulators in the hall. But I still say he was never a dominant pitcher, and for me that's important when it comes to the hall of fame.
Also, Blyleven pitched before steroids produced the hitting explosion, which explains the fact that despite his low ERA he only played in two all-star games. ERA's were much lower back then all around. Besides the advent of steroids, the baseball was apparently different, the ballparks were more conducive to pitching, etc.
Blyleven also pitched before 'small market' had the meaning it did today. His era was dominated by teams like the Twins, Cardinals, Reds, Pirates, Royals, Orioles, etc. The small market argument does not hold up for that period in time.
Sandra
Thanks for the chance to have a constructive dialogue. That's part of what makes sports talk fun.
I'll give you at least part of your argument regarding small market, at least in the early part of Bert's career. As a lifelong Twins fan, however, most of the seventies and eighties were a black hole. The Cards are, and, I think, will always be an exception. St. Louis is a baseball city, maybe THE baseball city. Pirates and Royals had good runs, but not that long-lived. I'm not sure Baltimore/DC would qualify as small market.
Blyleven's ERA was excellent when measured against the pitchers of his time, including the pitchers of his time that are now in the Hall.
Hey, if I can convince you, I only need find four more converts before next year's HoF vote!
It's not quite that simple, for pitchers or hitters. While I do recognize there are certain benchmarks that get people into the hall of fame regardless of what else happened in their careers, to pass my taste test I would like a player to at least be one of the best players at their position for a decent period of time. Not necessarily dominant, although that would certainly help.
That's why Pat Hentgen does not pass my test...and neither does Bert Blyleven. Neither will Mike Mussina or Andy Pettitte, unless Pettitte makes it to a benchmark that gets him in. I am an equal opportunity judge.
Blyleven making it into two all star games in a very long career says he was very rarely one of the top pitchers in the sport.
Of course, that's just my opinion. If Blyleven ever gets in life will go on for me...
But I believe the hall should be reserved for the best of the best.
Sandra
It's not quite that simple, for pitchers or hitters. While I do recognize there are certain benchmarks that get people into the hall of fame regardless of what else happened in their careers, to pass my taste test I would like a player to at least be one of the best players at their position for a decent period of time. Not necessarily dominant, although that would certainly help.
That's why Pat Hentgen does not pass my test...and neither does Bert Blyleven. Neither will Mike Mussina or Andy Pettitte, unless Pettitte makes it to a benchmark that gets him in. I am an equal opportunity judge.
Blyleven making it into two all star games in a very long career says he was very rarely one of the top pitchers in the sport.
Of course, that's just my opinion. If Blyleven ever gets in life will go on for me...
But I believe the hall should be reserved for the best of the best.
Sandra
Just because he wasn't an All-Star? Nolan Ryan never won a Cy Young, yes I know he had a bunch of strikeouts, no-hitters, and won 300 games, but to pick one thing from someone's career and say that is why they aren't a HOF'er is not fair to that player to me. Just my opinion on the subject.
Nolan Ryan is an accumulator with a bunch of no-hitters!
As I said, if people think Blyleven should get in, or if he does get in, I understand. But in my opinion he was not one of the best pitchers of his time. I will admit I am a very harsh grader when it comes to the hall of fame, others are much more lenient.
Sandra
for fun I went through Bert's numbers...wins versus team wins
kinda staggering in some cases how many wins he got on such bad teams
1st number is Bert's wins...2nd number team wins...some bolded ones are just crazy
Twins
70 10 98
71 16 74
72 17 77
73 20 81
74 17 82
75 15 76
2 teams (MN & Texas)
76 13
Texas
77 14 94
Pittsburgh
78 14 88
79 12 98
80 8 83
81 11 46
82 2 (not really counting....only played in 4 games)
Cleveland
83 7 70
84 19 75
85 17 2 teams
Twins
86 17 71
87 15 85
88 10 91
California
89 17 91
90 8 80
92 8 72
kinda staggering in some cases how many wins he got on such bad teams
1st number is Bert's wins...2nd number team wins...some bolded ones are just crazy
Twins
70 10 98
71 16 74
72 17 77
73 20 81
74 17 82
75 15 76
2 teams (MN & Texas)
76 13
Texas
77 14 94
Pittsburgh
78 14 88
79 12 98
80 8 83
81 11 46
82 2 (not really counting....only played in 4 games)
Cleveland
83 7 70
84 19 75
85 17 2 teams
Twins
86 17 71
87 15 85
88 10 91
California
89 17 91
90 8 80
92 8 72
Glad Dawson made it, and an interseting discussion on the others - surprised there has been no mention so far of Pete Rose.
If anybody belongs in the HOF based SOLELY on what they did as a player while on the field - it's Pete!
If anybody belongs in the HOF based SOLELY on what they did as a player while on the field - it's Pete!
Morris was one of the most dominant pitchers of the 80's.
Alan Trammell should be in the Hall of Fame.
