Appeals Court Finds Echostar in Contempt in TIVO Case

[Tyralak]

I guess you guys don't realize that TiVo owns a DVR patent that predates ReplayTV's patents. Or maybe fact don't matter to either of you.

I hope YOU realize that tivo is infringing on patents ReplayTV has as well. Which is why when the two sued each other, they agreed essentially to walk away because they were both stepping on each other's patents. Also, there are a number of patents that each company own. And guess what? The one you're talking about isn't the infamous "389" patent. It also still doesn't change the fact that ReplayTV invented the first consumer grade DVR.

 

[meStevo]

I guess you guys don't realize that TiVo owns a DVR patent that predates ReplayTV's patents. Or maybe fact don't matter to either of you.

I hope YOU realize that tivo is infringing on patents ReplayTV has as well. Which is why when the two sued each other, they agreed essentially to walk away because they were both stepping on each other's patents. Also, there are a number of patents that each company own. And guess what? The one you're talking about isn't the infamous "389" patent. It also still doesn't change the fact that ReplayTV invented the first consumer grade DVR.

doesn't make dish less guilty of patent infringement, no matter how many times someone mentions this.



Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

 

[STL]

As far as the TIVO '389 (Time Warp) patent - the USPTO is currently in the process of invalidating this patent based on a combination of prior art. It will take some time before this happens and surely TIVO will fight tooth and nail to prevent this from happening as this is one of the two bread and butter patents in their portfolio as it relates to DVR function. It is extremely unlikely this will have any effect on the Echostar case.

Despite they way you make it sound, it is being merely being reviewed -- and no merit judgment has been made at all.

Replay and TIVO went after each other over DVR functionality many years ago with both companies withdrawing their lawsuits as both seemingly had valid patents over various aspects of DVR and Guide functionality.

TiVo and ReplyTV actually agreed to cross-license each others patents -- mainly because they knew it was pointless going after each other (at that point in time at least).

 

[STL]

I hope YOU realize that tivo is infringing on patents ReplayTV has as well. Which is why when the two sued each other, they agreed essentially to walk away because they were both stepping on each other's patents. Also, there are a number of patents that each company own. And guess what? The one you're talking about isn't the infamous "389" patent. It also still doesn't change the fact that ReplayTV invented the first consumer grade DVR.

You make it sound as if ReplayTV was introduced several years ahead of TiVo. Both were in development at the same time, and it is true that ReplayTV make it to market a little before TiVo. And both did agree to cross-license each others patents (because unlike DISH, ReplayTV actually had some valid patents related to DVRs). So there are ZERO similarities with what DISH did! DISH invited TiVo to present their product under the guise they were going to partner with them then stole their source code and intellectual property. People here that aren't DISH fan-boys or TiVo haters (simply because they don't want their DISH bills to go up) can clearly see that -- and so far all the court rulings agree with me.

 

[Tyralak]

I didn't realize the new boxes had no software.

You can't possibly be this dumb. In the ViP models the critical DVR features are processed by dedicated hardware rather than the software based solution that the earlier models used. These units aren't using anything close to what tivo's patent covers. The interesting thing is, but trying to include the ViP receivers, they're attempting to lay claim to someone else's intellectual property that they have no right to. Pot. Kettle. Black.

 

[Tyralak]

Do you really think that TiVo will offer a license that does not include all DVR's?

They had better, considering they don't have a right to all DVRs. The ViP models and any of DirecTV's future receivers based on Replay technology have nothing at all to do with tivo's patents. The criticism I've always had about tivo is being proven. They aren't trying to defend *A* DVR patent, they think they have the right to control EVERY DVR. This is utter chutzpah, considering many DVRs don't have anything to do with their patents.

 

[TheForce]

Thats what I will do....let Dish replace my 625 (which had worked flawlessly till now)....But...in PR they only give 622....which is prone to failures.

Good news- The 622's most common failure other than hard drive wearing out is the constant rebooting. This was finally resolved in early December 2009 after months of repeated 622 refurb failures. ( Refurbs that would fail too ) I had 6 of them within 5 weeks! It was a power supply connector that had gone intermittent over time due to heating up and losing its spring tension. They are now replacing it with a better connector during refurb so, according to a source at Echostar, they have had 100% success since that change. He told me they are replacing all hard drives and all of these failing connectors in all refurbs and the problem with refurbs is now gone.

Basically, the 622 ( IMO) is a fine mature DVR and absent the reboot issue will serve a user very well. What you won't get with the 622 is some of the latest features first off the shelf since Dish tends to offer these to the 722's first. I actually had very good usage from my 622 and would have one today, except I wanted the additional features of the 722K with OTA module.

 

[charlesrshell]

Good news- The 622's most common failure other than hard drive wearing out is the constant rebooting. This was finally resolved in early December 2009 after months of repeated 622 refurb failures. ( Refurbs that would fail too ) I had 6 of them within 5 weeks! It was a power supply connector that had gone intermittent over time due to heating up and losing its spring tension. They are now replacing it with a better connector during refurb so, according to a source at Echostar, they have had 100% success since that change. He told me they are replacing all hard drives and all of these failing connectors in all refurbs and the problem with refurbs is now gone.

Basically, the 622 ( IMO) is a fine mature DVR and absent the reboot issue will serve a user very well. What you won't get with the 622 is some of the latest features first off the shelf since Dish tends to offer these to the 722's first. I actually had very good usage from my 622 and would have one today, except I wanted the additional features of the 722K with OTA module.

Do the 722 and 722ks have the better connector in them?

 

[TheForce]

Do the 722 and 722ks have the better connector in them?

Don't know. If yours begins to reboot stutter ( my term) they I guess you'll have your answer. So far my two are trouble free and the 722 is nearly as old as my original 622 that went bad.

 

[charlesrshell]

Don't know. If yours begins to reboot stutter ( my term) they I guess you'll have your answer. So far my two are trouble free and the 722 is nearly as old as my original 622 that went bad.

I only had issue with one of the 722s two and half years ago when I first got them. And it went away as soon as I added cooling fans.

 

[mike123abc]

Despite they way you make it sound, it is being merely being reviewed -- and no merit judgment has been made at all.

A bit more than that: U.S. Patent Office Rejects Some Of TiVo's 'Time Warp' Claims In Preliminary Review - 2009-08-04 19:00:17 | Multichannel News

The patent office issued an initial rejection. TiVo now has to defend the patent again. The review was done and parts up for invalidation based on prior art that Dish showed the patent office.

The patent office, in its Aug. 3 re-examination, said two claims in the '389 patent related to indexing "now appear to be rendered obvious" by prior art in two patents: 6,018,612, granted to Philips for a system that simultaneously stores and plays back a TV program; and 5,949,948, granted to iMedia for a compressed video-playback system.

It does not have bearing on this case because once the final appeal is done (when the Supreme Court declined to take up the case), the original judgement stands. Even if the patent is invalidated, Dish cannot get a refund on its money.

But, if TiVo is unable to defend the patent (note just parts not) it will really weaken their case in future litigation (like if they decide to go after VIP DVRs).

 

[TheForce]

So, with TIVO stock up and now holding steady for a day at about 17.50, ( heck, I thought it would make it to 18 )did anyone here cash in on this jump? Or, do most of you just watch on the outside while others have cashed in on this legal announcement? Jim Cramer's advice, if you made some on TIVO cash in now and buy Dish stock.

Seriously, I always wonder what the emotional motivation is with many posters here to take a side. Some are rather passionate about it. Are they investors in the companies involved? Or, do they just own the questionable products? If I had to bet on what IS the emotional drive behind some of these followers of a side it is that they love a good fight and just want to cheer on their team, be it because they own the equipment or own stock in the company but bottom line is they just like the fight.

Personally, I am rather neutral because I have made some money on both these companies in the past few years. I did miss this last move with TIVO because my investment cash pile was all tied up in Apple ( which is doing well this week too ) Plus, this didn't really affect my DISH stock I am holding on now.

The one argument I won't buy is that you favor a side because they are right. IMO, there is no right or wrong here. There is only who wins and who loses. I don't think either of the parties are clean and pure. Likewise, I think the patent system has too many flaws as well so there is no right and wrong, just winners and losers. In the end it really is all about money.

 

[Mike0616]

This was an appeal to a three judge appellate panel. Echostar is free to (and probably will) appeal to the full appellate court, and then to the Supremes if necessary. I would assume that a request for a stay of the order would be part of that.

Anyone can request anything, but E* does NOT have a constitutional right to have the case reheard by the full appellate court. The court of appeals seldomly does so and they could tell E to go pile sand up their collective @$$es. Same goes for the Supremes, you can file there, but by no means do you have a right to have it heard there. Only issues that are of a constitutional nature are usually heard by the Supremes and would love to hear how you think this would qualify as a matter of constitutional law. A stay could be asked for, but since this matter has been litigated and E has already been found in contempt of court, don't hold your breath for one to be issued.


After looking at the ruling, who knows what the court will decide next. All E* DVRs could be turned off. Painting a banana purple does NOT mean its no longer a banana.

 

[KAB]

All E* DVRs could be turned off.

No. No. A thousand times, NO.

 

[Jim S.]

How do you know? The court could issue any damned ruling it feels like, legal or not, compatible with elementary logic or not, and it would be in effect until someone got a more sensible court to overturn it.

 

[Greg Bimson]

In the ViP models the critical DVR features are processed by dedicated hardware rather than the software based solution that the earlier models used.

More bad information...

The software on the ViP 622/722 was changed at the same time the software was changed on the 501/508/510 and 522/625 models, all in the name of avoiding infringement. So please don't believe for a second that the ViP models are out of the scope of infringement, simply because some functions are now done via hardware.

Edit: allow me to be clear about this, the ViP series is safe for some time until TiVo can accuse those models of being merely colorably different and then go through the entire contempt action and have them found infringing. So they are technically quite safe, as the road to even touch the ViP series should be pretty much completed once the older DVR's are finally finished the appeal process.

 

[englandman44601]

Does anyone remember replay tv? who owned that? they should be able to sue tivo! lol.

 

[odbrv]

I am excited. Imagine if E* has to shut down all DVR receivers. Imagine if all these customers switch to direct TV. Remember the D* with E* merger that the FCC killed. Well it would almost come true. Now imagine the cable company and telephone company executives coming to grips with a 20 million customer D*. Can you imagine the calls to their well funded congressmen to do something. It was this process that influenced the FCC to kill the merger. The pressure on the patent office to kill the TIVO patent will become intense. I bet this is already happening. I believe our political system will be predictable and stop an E* death.

 

[Kheldar]

I am excited. Imagine if E* has to shut down all DVR receivers. Imagine if all these customers switch to direct TV. Remember the D* with E* merger that the FCC killed. Well it would almost come true. Now imagine the cable company and telephone company executives coming to grips with a 20 million customer D*. Can you imagine the calls to their well funded congressmen to do something. It was this process that influenced the FCC to kill the merger. The pressure on the patent office to kill the TIVO patent will become intense. I bet this is already happening. I believe our political system will be predictable and stop an E* death.

Calm down, dude. We are a long way from any of this happening.

 

[sparc]

Dish will pay off TIVO and license the patents. It's inevitable.

They're not going to cut off DVR service. They're not going to replace millions of receivers with new one's in 30 days or whenever the injunction starts. Only option is to pay TIVO off.

The only bad news for all us Dish customers... we're about to get screwed big time with programming fee increases in the next year. On top of what I already got screwed on the new receiver lease fees.