AMD X2 + USB 2.0= blue screens, my solution inside

[Xl900]

Disclaimer: This will not fix everyones bsod troubles

Ok, I will make this as quick and painless as possible.

If you get BSOD's, there is a quick fix, while not the best fix, it does work.

The following should apply to your computer:
NF4 chipset
X2 processor
USB 2.0 enabled


There are known issues, with NF4 boards and USB 2.0. Most of them on single core setups, are simply IRQ conflicts, and eventually a solution can be found. It is common to almost all motherboard manufactuers, that have the NF4 chipset. the X2 chips, just compounds the already joyful issue with USB 2.0.

On X2 systems however, it goes even deeper. You will get major stability problems, with USB, on most systems, even after you solve the IRQ conflicts. There are the few who get lucky, for whatever reason, and find a perfect driver match. I, have not been so lucky.

The solution to stop the BSOD's, is to add the /onecpu switch , to the end of your boot.ini See below for how to do this.

This loads windows, with only one core. And bypasses the X2 errors. By using this, I can do anything I want with Timetrax up, and have yet to bluescreen.


A "perfect" fix? No way in hell. This is an issue that shouldnt even exist in the first place.

But, I would rather run my computer on one core, then miss Howard.

I will eventually put a dual boot setup, one for normal, and one for timetrax. But for now, one core will get me by.


Boot.ini instructions.

Right click My computer, select Properties.
Go to the advanced tab.
Under Start up and recovery, select Settings.
Under System startup, click the edit button next to "To edit the startup options file manually, click edit"

You will see something like:

[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP Professional" /noexecute=optin /fastdetect /usepmtimer /onecpu


Notice the /onecpu command

Put this in your boot.ini, save, exit, restart. Your BSOD, and USB troubles should vanish.

 

[dserianni]

Would disabling HyperThreading in the Bios achieve the same result?

Derek

 

[Xl900]

It could very easily solve some troubles. I am not too familiar with the current crop of intel boards, but HyperThreading pretty much turns the cpu into two virtual cores, in the way that the chip opperates.

I could see USB drivers running into the same "holy crap two cpus, what do I send where, arrrgh BSOD" troubles with Hyperthreading.

You have to remember, software is designed for one cpu in mind. Unless otherwise stated. And drivers especially, are having issues with two cores. Compounded by IRQ sharing windows hell.

There might even be a switch to disable HyperThreading at bootup, instead of having to pop it in the bios everytime. But I am not familiar enough with Intel and their drivers.

 

[PhuckNut]

Disclaimer: This will not fix everyones bsod troubles
Ok, I will make this as quick and painless as possible.
If you get BSOD's, there is a quick fix, while not the best fix, it does work.
The following should apply to your computer:
NF4 chipset
X2 processor
USB 2.0 enabled
There are known issues, with NF4 boards and USB 2.0. Most of them on single core setups, are simply IRQ conflicts, and eventually a solution can be found. It is common to almost all motherboard manufactuers, that have the NF4 chipset. the X2 chips, just compounds the already joyful issue with USB 2.0.
On X2 systems however, it goes even deeper. You will get major stability problems, with USB, on most systems, even after you solve the IRQ conflicts. There are the few who get lucky, for whatever reason, and find a perfect driver match. I, have not been so lucky.
The solution to stop the BSOD's, is to add the /onecpu switch , to the end of your boot.ini See below for how to do this.
This loads windows, with only one core. And bypasses the X2 errors. By using this, I can do anything I want with Timetrax up, and have yet to bluescreen.
A "perfect" fix? No way in hell. This is an issue that shouldnt even exist in the first place.
But, I would rather run my computer on one core, then miss Howard.
I will eventually put a dual boot setup, one for normal, and one for timetrax. But for now, one core will get me by.
Boot.ini instructions.
Right click My computer, select Properties.
Go to the advanced tab.
Under Start up and recovery, select Settings.
Under System startup, click the edit button next to "To edit the startup options file manually, click edit"
You will see something like:
[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP Professional" /noexecute=optin /fastdetect /usepmtimer /onecpu
Notice the /onecpu command
Put this in your boot.ini, save, exit, restart. Your BSOD, and USB troubles should vanish.

I think my only problem with this is that I am running an Athlon 2.2GHz X2 64 cpu and running the OLD Time Trax Classic (3.2) and I do not see these BSOD's. If it were a USB driver problem with dual core or dual CPUs I would expect this problem in ANY application and USB driver.

Obviously I might be the exception I just strongly feel that I would see this BSOD as well (or at least the computer reboot from hardware problems).

Athlon 2.2GHz
2GB Ram
ASUS A8N SLI Premium Board
NForce Chipset
BFG NVidia 7800GT card

 

[dserianni]

Hey Gang,

We are getting reports from other users that turning off HyperThreading either in the Boot.ini or Bios is correcting the BSOD issue.

This trully is a revalation! I can't being to thank you enough for figuring this out.


XL900... please PM me with your e-mail address. I would like to contact you off the forum.


We are going to seriously look into this and see what we can do to correct this.

In the mean time we are suggesting that BSOD sufferers turn off HyperThreading in the mean time.


Derek

 

[PhuckNut]

Hey Gang,
We are getting reports from other users that turning off HyperThreading either in the Boot.ini or Bios is correcting the BSOD issue.
This trully is a revalation! I can't being to thank you enough for figuring this out.
XL900... please PM me with your e-mail address. I would like to contact you off the forum.
We are going to seriously look into this and see what we can do to correct this.
In the mean time we are suggesting that BSOD sufferers turn off HyperThreading in the mean time.
Derek

I beleive this goes back to the whole thing about the application itself being Dual CPU aware and understanding how to handle it. You are essentially asking customers to disable something that really does boost performance in their PC.

I personally am not too effected considering I have rolled back to the TT Classic 3.2 version - but I really wanted to start using the newer stuff and this sets me back.

I understand this might be a temp solution until you go back to figuring out whats wrong and fix it - I just hope its sooner than later.

 

[dserianni]

We are just asking that people to it as a temporary fix till we can adjust our code.

The info is now in the hands of the programers and they are looking into what can be done to correct it.

Derek

 

[Xl900]

I think my only problem with this is that I am running an Athlon 2.2GHz X2 64 cpu and running the OLD Time Trax Classic (3.2) and I do not see these BSOD's. If it were a USB driver problem with dual core or dual CPUs I would expect this problem in ANY application and USB driver.
Obviously I might be the exception I just strongly feel that I would see this BSOD as well (or at least the computer reboot from hardware problems).
Athlon 2.2GHz
2GB Ram
ASUS A8N SLI Premium Board
NForce Chipset
BFG NVidia 7800GT card

It actually is a known issue. In almost every manufacturers forum you will find a thread about USB troubles. Although most of the threads, are about very high bandwidth devices, like USB Hd's. Like I said, I would be curious to know the exact bios version/NF4 chipset driver version you are running. Also, have you tried the new version to see if you bluescreen? It would be nice if you could post your IRQ list from device manager so we can see how your IRQ assignment ended up under your windows install.

The USB subsystem is pretty much fails when it comes into interaction with other components. Worst case senario, is when the USB root controller ends up sharing an IRQ with the Sata or IDE drivers. This will actually nuke Raids, and corrupt HD data. And resolving the problem is pretty much shoot and miss, thanks to the way Windows does not allow you to manually assign IRQs. Sometimes the only way to get a new IRQ on a device is to remove and reinstall it, sometimes physically moving a PCI card to another slot.

Im not entirely 100% convinced its a software issue. As I have seen quite a few systems lately, that work fine with a PCI USB 2.0 card. But, that is another unreasonable fix really, just like disabling a core.

Windows 2k, even complicates the problem more. I have seen screens of 4 devices on the same IRQ.

 

[PhuckNut]

IRQ as seen by windows...

I cannot restart my computer to see what the BIOS says all the IRQs are doing, but here is a screen shot from the my computer section when you choose to view by IRQ

I dunno... somehow I feel this is incomplete.

 

[cmaier]

i'm surprised if the TT is stressing the usb connection. what's it doing other than sending song titles over the link (assuming you're not rapidly sending channel-change commands to the unit, etc.) Shouldn't require much bandwidth.

 

[PhuckNut]

i'm surprised if the TT is stressing the usb connection. what's it doing other than sending song titles over the link (assuming you're not rapidly sending channel-change commands to the unit, etc.) Shouldn't require much bandwidth.

I have a stronger feeling this is deeper inside the application more and the fact that TT uses the serial usb driver you see this in the driver.

Some applications run mutliple threads, so, if threads get out of sync or somethign takes longer than expected in a time frame, I imagine you could crash pretty good.

Just my speculation... they are working on it tho - I just hope for a fix soon.

 

[toenut]

I was able to run TT for the first time without it crashing my system by turning off HT too.

 

[dserianni]

Thanks for the report toenut.

The developers have bought a few cases of Jolt Cola and will be working to solve this.

I don't think it will be done overnight... but we are extremely happy to know what the issue is that has been causing this and it points us in the right direction.


Hang tight guys.... we are working on it.


Derek

 

[vurbano]

I had rampant BSOD's with an ASUS A8N-E motherboard with gigabit recently. The solution was to get rid of the Nvida Netware Manager drivers. That was the whole problem. I found this updating all the ASUS drivers (pathetically slow website!)and still having the problem. It was fine plugged into 10/100, but as soon as you plugged it into a giga switch it went haywire. Everything is fine now and giga works.

 

[Xl900]

I'm still not convinced this is a problem specific to just the TT software. It does happen in other USB 2.0 situations. All involving Dual core cpus, and NF4 motherboards. From USB hubs BSOD'ing a machine, to USB Hds, USB keyboards, mice etc. The higher the USB traffic, generally the higher fail rate.

Some reports claim its the Windows IDE drivers fighting with the USB drivers, and to fix it you have to run the NF4 HD drivers. Which I refuse to run, because they are unstable as all hell, and corrupt data on many HDs.

The TT software, obviously has found a way to bring the problem out quickly. I can BSOD my machine in probably about 30 seconds flat. If the problem was only the TT software, then you could remedy it by simply setting affinity on the TT executable and telling it to only run on a single core. The /onecpu switch, forces everything, drivers, OS, and all hardware to only utilize one cpu. Which corrects the problem.

So its something IMO other then the TT software itself. It is a USB 2.0 driver problem on the NF4 boards, that reacts badly to Dual core cpus. Probably in a way similar to some games reacting badly to two cores, only because it directly involves the system bus, it is alot more detrimental to a systems stability. Where as in the games, it just causes a big performance hit.

 

[PhuckNut]

I see your points, I just have so many USB devices I would expect to see this BSOD outside the TT app running. When its not, no BSOD.

So - I will wait for the NEW Beta that will hopefully be released soon and I will test soon.

I am also getting ready to set up another box for testing this easier than forcing the install and uninstall to get the different beta's and stuff going...

 

[Xl900]

I see your points, I just have so many USB devices I would expect to see this BSOD outside the TT app running. When its not, no BSOD.
So - I will wait for the NEW Beta that will hopefully be released soon and I will test soon.
I am also getting ready to set up another box for testing this easier than forcing the install and uninstall to get the different beta's and stuff going...

Could you post your entire setup? You have the same MB as I do if I remember right. A8n Sli premium?

What Bios version are you using?
NF4 Driver version - also which of the NF4 drivers you chose to install.
NF vid driver version
Which of the net ports are you using? the NF or the Marv?
What OS, etc etc.
Brands of all hardware, sound, hds, cds.

If you could that would be awesome.

 

[PhuckNut]

ASUS A8N - SLI Premium BIOS 1007

Nforce NIC at GigaBit speed connected to a Netgear 5 port GigBit switch
Nvidia driver - 04.06.2005 version 4.8.2.0

Marvel NIC not connected Marvek Driver 11.10.2005 version 8.46.4.3

NVidia Network Bus Enumerator 04.06.2005 version 4.8.2.0

ALL USB devices in the USB section are using MS driver 07.01.2001 version 5.1.2600.0

Except for 1 USB Root Hub using MS driver 07.01.2001 version 5.1.2600.2180
And 1 USB Serial Convertor using FTDI 04.16.2004 Version 1.02154.0

NVidia GeForce 7800 GT from BFG Over Clocked version from manufacturer NVIDIA Driver 11.11.2005 version 8.1.9.5

RealTek Sound Card On Board RealTek Driver 06.20.2005 version 5.10.0.5870

I have an ATI TV Elite Tuner card that I cannot actually find the device in the Device manager of the machine (but it works - ) here is the driver version for that stram driver ATI Driver 08.13.2005 version 6.14.10.102

WD Raptor Serial ATA 74GB 10kRPM drive
Hitachi Serial ATA 250GB 7200 RPM

USB Optical MS mouse
USB 4 port USB 2.0 Hub with SanDisk Multi slot Media adapter
USB iPod Dock and iPod 60GB video

External USB drives:
20GB and 30GB laptop drives from some no name case manufacturer
(not always plugged in, but at least once or twice a day I plug them in and then unplug them)

Time Trax Recast Ran all last weekend (01.07-01.08) until the issue with registration servers and I thought I might not have had a stable system to record so I rolled back to the only thing I knew was best was the 3.2 classic version.

I never had ANY BSOD issues with the 1.5 Beta Running, just the application itself crashing which is noted in that Beta Thread.

 

[Xl900]

The biggest thing I see, is your bios version. I have to run a much newer (rumored buggy) bios. Because my chip is only supported in the later bios's.

The rest of the drivers are dead on.

Do you have the NF4 SW IDE drivers loaded? That is one thing that is rumored to help USB troubles, if you have a drive that doesnt get corrupted from them. My drive, didnt like them. My comp would freeze randomly when loading windows, and I had corruption issues.

 

[PhuckNut]

The biggest thing I see, is your bios version. I have to run a much newer (rumored buggy) bios. Because my chip is only supported in the later bios's.

What Chip do you have that isn't supported in 1007 Bios?

The rest of the drivers are dead on.
Do you have the NF4 SW IDE drivers loaded? That is one thing that is rumored to help USB troubles, if you have a drive that doesnt get corrupted from them. My drive, didnt like them. My comp would freeze randomly when loading windows, and I had corruption issues.

The Nvidie nForce4 Parallel ATA Controler drivers are : NVidia Corp. 05.17.2005 version 5.10.2600.534
(from the version number it looks like a windows version number and not nvidia but I dunno that for sure)