While this sounds like me after a few drinks, it's unfortunately also the situation I'm currently in at my very beginnings of this hobby. I've got a AZBox Premium plus, a fixed Winegard 76CM, and a SNH031 invacom Ku LNBF. I first tried to line up AMC-21 no luck, then I tried AMC-9 just to try something that seemed high up and pretty south, no luck. I've a satellite finder and I can get that puppy screaming, but signal around 67% at most usually and no quality. I'm at my wits end, there seem to be so many variables here I can't seem to get them to line up. Anyone have any good suggestions so that I might get a lock onto something?
All strength no quality.
- Thread starter clckwrk
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empiretc: Thanks for the response. Interesting so should I be at all concerned that that signal strength is that low (60's) between my lnbf and the reciever? Can you give me an idea of what a booming transponder would be, I'm in North Carolina if that matters at all. If I can get one then I'm pretty sure I can figure out the rest, I just get no movement on the quality at all always 0%. I assume it's because the dish is not pointed correctly, but if I can latch onto something even a little bit that would be encouraging. Thanks.
Couple of great points brought up here. Use a "data transponder" for that sat from The List @ SatelliteGuys.US_TheList - 83.0°W AMC 9 Ku to get your aiming in the ballpark, then you can fine-tune with other TP's. You said you have a sat finder and get good signal? This sounds more like (as Jim S. said) your box is not set for a linear LNB. Can you give us your setup? (Dish size, LNBF type and box).
Sorry for the delay in response...
Yeap, that's what at least I think I'm setting the receiver up for.
I did not. That is changed, but still no quality.
I have a sat finder and it makes a hell of a lot of noise and I try to do as I've seen in a number of videos, tweak turn it down, tweak again, repeat. Probably not pointed where I think it is. The setup is AZBox Premium plus, a fixed Winegard 76CM, and a SNH031 invacom Ku LNBF.
Not at all I'm afraid. I'm over in Pittsborro by Jordan lake and Chapel Hill.
So this is the info I get from dish pointer with zip 27312
So the dish is raised a bit above 45 degrees by the marks on the attachments, and measured with a protractor. I'm going with the Azimuth(magn.) so the dish is pointing a little west of due south. With LNB skew oh so slightly. (*edit by little west and skewed ever so slighty I mean I took a compass and pointed the dish to 195.1 to the best of my compass/protractor skills, and 5.3 skew on the lmb based on the markings on the lnb and mount)
For Antenna setup in the azbox configuration I've the following:
Strength 58%
Quality 0%
Satellite Name: 83.0W AMC-9 Ku
LNB Frequency: Universal
DiSEqC: OFF
22KHZ Tone: ON
0/12V Switch: 0V
LNB Power: ON
TP Frequency: 11728MHz(H) -- I've been setting this to 11735(H)/4440 whenever I change this and leave this screen it goes back to 11728
Positioner Setup: OFF
Network Search: Normal
I hope that helps to track down more, I'd be glad to give any other information from the configuration if it will help.
I appreciate the help.
Yeap, that's what at least I think I'm setting the receiver up for.
I did not. That is changed, but still no quality.
I have a sat finder and it makes a hell of a lot of noise and I try to do as I've seen in a number of videos, tweak turn it down, tweak again, repeat. Probably not pointed where I think it is. The setup is AZBox Premium plus, a fixed Winegard 76CM, and a SNH031 invacom Ku LNBF.
Not at all I'm afraid. I'm over in Pittsborro by Jordan lake and Chapel Hill.
So this is the info I get from dish pointer with zip 27312
| Latitude: 35.7524° Longitude: -79.1774° | Name: 83W AMC-9 (GE-12) Distance: 37192km | Elevation: 48.3° Azimuth (true): 186.5° Azimuth (magn.): 195.1° LNB Skew [?]: 5.3° 
|
So the dish is raised a bit above 45 degrees by the marks on the attachments, and measured with a protractor. I'm going with the Azimuth(magn.) so the dish is pointing a little west of due south. With LNB skew oh so slightly. (*edit by little west and skewed ever so slighty I mean I took a compass and pointed the dish to 195.1 to the best of my compass/protractor skills, and 5.3 skew on the lmb based on the markings on the lnb and mount)
For Antenna setup in the azbox configuration I've the following:
Strength 58%
Quality 0%
Satellite Name: 83.0W AMC-9 Ku
LNB Frequency: Universal
DiSEqC: OFF
22KHZ Tone: ON
0/12V Switch: 0V
LNB Power: ON
TP Frequency: 11728MHz(H) -- I've been setting this to 11735(H)/4440 whenever I change this and leave this screen it goes back to 11728
Positioner Setup: OFF
Network Search: Normal
I hope that helps to track down more, I'd be glad to give any other information from the configuration if it will help.
I appreciate the help.
Last edited:
The dish is likely to be aimed way too high if you are using a protractor to set the elevation angle instead of the stamped elevation scale on the back of the dish. If you are using a protractor set to 45 degrees on the face of the dish, the dish is actually aimed way above the satellite arc. to almost 70 degrees.
This dish is an offset design, so the face of the dish appears to be looking lower in the sky than where it is actually aimed. The apparent dish elevation angle will be aimed considerably lower than 45 degrees. You cannot measure the actual dish angle to locate the satellite unless you do some math. BTW: the scale that is stamped on the back of the mount already calculates this angle and is usually very accurate.
The Winegard 75cm offset angle is 24 degrees, so if you are using a protractor to set the dish angle set on the vertical face or plane (edge to edge) of the reflector you will need to deduct the offset angle of 24 degrees. A protractor reading where the dish is tilted back approximately 24.3 degrees will get you aimed into the right part of the sky.....
This dish is an offset design, so the face of the dish appears to be looking lower in the sky than where it is actually aimed. The apparent dish elevation angle will be aimed considerably lower than 45 degrees. You cannot measure the actual dish angle to locate the satellite unless you do some math. BTW: the scale that is stamped on the back of the mount already calculates this angle and is usually very accurate.
The Winegard 75cm offset angle is 24 degrees, so if you are using a protractor to set the dish angle set on the vertical face or plane (edge to edge) of the reflector you will need to deduct the offset angle of 24 degrees. A protractor reading where the dish is tilted back approximately 24.3 degrees will get you aimed into the right part of the sky.....
Yeah this was my first mistake. When mucking about with it initially I had finally noticed while staring at it that the signal must bounce from the top down. I just double checked this morning and it's set to the proper degree (or at least as close as I think it is) on the mount. I think that I'm going to have another go with the signal finder and see if I can't get the signal even better.
I'm still up in the air as to whether I can't aim the dish or configure the receiver. : )
Clckwrk,
I looked over all of your settings and I cannot find anything incorrect. However, there might be a small procedural complication here due to the AZBox operation, so try the following by accessing the following menu tree on your AZBox:
SETTINGS ? TV CHANNEL ? TUNER A DVB-S ? SAT/TP EDIT ? SATELLITE NAME (scroll to 83.0 W AMC 9) ? TP FREQUENCY (scroll to 11735 MHz).
Then, ensure that the SYMBOL RATE = 4440 KS/s, POLARIZATION = horizontal, MODULATION = DVB-S/QPSK, FEC = 3/4 and PILOT = 0.
Wait 10-20 seconds for the tuner to stabilize and present you with a SIGNAL STRENGTH reading (the top blue bar graph).
From here on out, monitor the SIGNAL QUALITY (the lower orange bar graph) for any positive indication. If you can take the AZBox receiver and a portable TV out to the dish so you can monitor this SIGNAL QUALITY reading, I would highly recommend that you do so. If you really cannot do that, it is going to be a longer process, but you will just have to do what you can. If you have to incorporate your "screaming" meter, do so.
Start with the dish elevation and azimuth set as close to the settings you found from dish pointer. Ensure that you polarize the LNBF to approximately 5.3° (twist it to the west). Satellite 83.0°W is west of your location, so you must rotate the LNBF in the direction of the satellite.
Think of the satellite as a [ + ] sign riding on a rainbow and the rainbow is the Clarke Belt over the equator. The vertical bar represents the vertical polarity signal and the horizontal bar represents the horizontal polarity signal (obviously). If the satellite is due south of you, the vertical bar is straight up (perpendicular to the surface of the earth) and the horizontal bar is parallel or tangent to the surface of the earth. Every satellite is aligned this way in reference to the surface of the earth. But, since 83.0°W is not due south of where you are, the [ + ] sign is going to appear tilted from your vantage point. The further west of you a satellite is, the more the upper portion of the vertical bar leans to the west and the more the west side of the horizontal bar leans downward, too. Inside the LNBF there are pickup probes that form a [ + ] and must be aligned with the satellite [ + ] polarization. So as you pick satellites further west, you have to rotate the LNBF west to maintain the alignment of both.
You don't have to be extremely accurate with the degree value that you rotate the LNBF. It is not as sensitive to this orientation as you might suspect. But, you should attempt to be close and then when you get a signal, you can fine tune it for an optimum signal.
Next, manually rotate the dish on the mast east or west just a tick. If you are using the audible meter, listen for a HOT (strong) signal, then switch over to your AZBox and check the indication on your SIGNAL QUALITY meter. If you hit the correct satellite and TP, the meter should show you a valid response. If not, pan the dish a little farther till the next signal is found and recheck it. You'll have to keep doing so until you have finally dialed into the correct satellite. Just remember, that if you are using the SIGNAL QUALITY meter on the AZBox, make sure that you allow 10-20 seconds for the tuner to LOCK properly. Other receivers and their tuners are more responsive for this (quicker to lock), so with the AZBox you will have to use more patience. 10 - 20 seconds is probably an extreme measure, but just try to give it that time at first, till you get accustomed to the speed of your tuner.
The major problem is learning how to make the most finite of adjustments and giving the tuner the time to lock. All receivers require a measure of patience in this regard, but the AZBox may be slower than you anticipated. It's not bad to lock signal once the system is setup, but searching for signals for the first time is a little different, so just keep this in mind.
Now, once you have panned the dish east and west across the general location where the sat you are looking for should be, if you don't lock on to the proper signal, you have to adjust the elevation or your dish and start the process all over again. Mark or record where the elevation was and try it 1° higher or lower. No luck there, then try 2° higher or lower and do it all over again. If you get to 5° or more off (higher or lower in elevation) and haven't achieved a lock yet, then you are either panning the dish way too fast or there is something wrong.
It is not difficult and if you utilize the angles that you found from dish pointer, you should almost get it during the first few minutes of trying as those angles are quite accurate. Since all the information / data that you have supplied us appears to be spot on to me, I can only assume that the problem is with your panning procedure. But, that doesn't mean that there isn't something else wrong that I or others have missed.
Of course, I have to recite the #1 rule. Did you double check the plumbness of the mast? The mast must absolutely be perfectly vertical or none of the angles from dish pointer will be valid. Bare in mind that this is an often overlooked point by many folks, so don't feel badly if you made the same mistake. It is not uncommon, so ensure that you double and triple check this. You must be SPOT ON with the plumb of the mast, it is so extremely critical that you must ensure that it is perfect.
Looking forward to hearing back from you and wishing you good luck.
RADAR
I looked over all of your settings and I cannot find anything incorrect. However, there might be a small procedural complication here due to the AZBox operation, so try the following by accessing the following menu tree on your AZBox:
SETTINGS ? TV CHANNEL ? TUNER A DVB-S ? SAT/TP EDIT ? SATELLITE NAME (scroll to 83.0 W AMC 9) ? TP FREQUENCY (scroll to 11735 MHz).
Then, ensure that the SYMBOL RATE = 4440 KS/s, POLARIZATION = horizontal, MODULATION = DVB-S/QPSK, FEC = 3/4 and PILOT = 0.
Wait 10-20 seconds for the tuner to stabilize and present you with a SIGNAL STRENGTH reading (the top blue bar graph).
From here on out, monitor the SIGNAL QUALITY (the lower orange bar graph) for any positive indication. If you can take the AZBox receiver and a portable TV out to the dish so you can monitor this SIGNAL QUALITY reading, I would highly recommend that you do so. If you really cannot do that, it is going to be a longer process, but you will just have to do what you can. If you have to incorporate your "screaming" meter, do so.
Start with the dish elevation and azimuth set as close to the settings you found from dish pointer. Ensure that you polarize the LNBF to approximately 5.3° (twist it to the west). Satellite 83.0°W is west of your location, so you must rotate the LNBF in the direction of the satellite.
Think of the satellite as a [ + ] sign riding on a rainbow and the rainbow is the Clarke Belt over the equator. The vertical bar represents the vertical polarity signal and the horizontal bar represents the horizontal polarity signal (obviously). If the satellite is due south of you, the vertical bar is straight up (perpendicular to the surface of the earth) and the horizontal bar is parallel or tangent to the surface of the earth. Every satellite is aligned this way in reference to the surface of the earth. But, since 83.0°W is not due south of where you are, the [ + ] sign is going to appear tilted from your vantage point. The further west of you a satellite is, the more the upper portion of the vertical bar leans to the west and the more the west side of the horizontal bar leans downward, too. Inside the LNBF there are pickup probes that form a [ + ] and must be aligned with the satellite [ + ] polarization. So as you pick satellites further west, you have to rotate the LNBF west to maintain the alignment of both.
You don't have to be extremely accurate with the degree value that you rotate the LNBF. It is not as sensitive to this orientation as you might suspect. But, you should attempt to be close and then when you get a signal, you can fine tune it for an optimum signal.
Next, manually rotate the dish on the mast east or west just a tick. If you are using the audible meter, listen for a HOT (strong) signal, then switch over to your AZBox and check the indication on your SIGNAL QUALITY meter. If you hit the correct satellite and TP, the meter should show you a valid response. If not, pan the dish a little farther till the next signal is found and recheck it. You'll have to keep doing so until you have finally dialed into the correct satellite. Just remember, that if you are using the SIGNAL QUALITY meter on the AZBox, make sure that you allow 10-20 seconds for the tuner to LOCK properly. Other receivers and their tuners are more responsive for this (quicker to lock), so with the AZBox you will have to use more patience. 10 - 20 seconds is probably an extreme measure, but just try to give it that time at first, till you get accustomed to the speed of your tuner.
The major problem is learning how to make the most finite of adjustments and giving the tuner the time to lock. All receivers require a measure of patience in this regard, but the AZBox may be slower than you anticipated. It's not bad to lock signal once the system is setup, but searching for signals for the first time is a little different, so just keep this in mind.
Now, once you have panned the dish east and west across the general location where the sat you are looking for should be, if you don't lock on to the proper signal, you have to adjust the elevation or your dish and start the process all over again. Mark or record where the elevation was and try it 1° higher or lower. No luck there, then try 2° higher or lower and do it all over again. If you get to 5° or more off (higher or lower in elevation) and haven't achieved a lock yet, then you are either panning the dish way too fast or there is something wrong.
It is not difficult and if you utilize the angles that you found from dish pointer, you should almost get it during the first few minutes of trying as those angles are quite accurate. Since all the information / data that you have supplied us appears to be spot on to me, I can only assume that the problem is with your panning procedure. But, that doesn't mean that there isn't something else wrong that I or others have missed.
Of course, I have to recite the #1 rule. Did you double check the plumbness of the mast? The mast must absolutely be perfectly vertical or none of the angles from dish pointer will be valid. Bare in mind that this is an often overlooked point by many folks, so don't feel badly if you made the same mistake. It is not uncommon, so ensure that you double and triple check this. You must be SPOT ON with the plumb of the mast, it is so extremely critical that you must ensure that it is perfect.
Looking forward to hearing back from you and wishing you good luck.
RADAR
Those cheap "satellite finders" can be very misleading from what I have heard. And I have never used an AzBox for aiming, but typically you can't hardly beat using a good receiver with a responsive quality meter for dish aiming.
You may already know this but don't get too hung up on the numbers (elevation and compass readings), while you do need them to get close and find a good starting place, from that point you need to sweep your dish right to left slowly (say 10-15 degrees each direction) while watching for quality. Also, Dishpointer.com is a great tool to see if your are aimed (azimuthwise) properly.
If you don't get anything raise (or lower) your dish a half degree or so and repeat. You are aiming at a target that is at least 22,000 miles up in the sky so small, slow movements are required.
Edit: RADAR types a lot faster, better and more than me....lots of good stuff there too!
You may already know this but don't get too hung up on the numbers (elevation and compass readings), while you do need them to get close and find a good starting place, from that point you need to sweep your dish right to left slowly (say 10-15 degrees each direction) while watching for quality. Also, Dishpointer.com is a great tool to see if your are aimed (azimuthwise) properly.
If you don't get anything raise (or lower) your dish a half degree or so and repeat. You are aiming at a target that is at least 22,000 miles up in the sky so small, slow movements are required.
Edit: RADAR types a lot faster, better and more than me....lots of good stuff there too!
Radar, thanks for this great Lnb Skew for Dummies explanation you just gave.
I wish I had read this some 3 years ago when I started in fta. It would have made my learning a whole lot easier. I´ve had to learn this the hard way through a LOT of hours in the sun or cold..but hey that´s where the fun is!
This site has been my fta school and though I hardly post I come in and read (and learn) almost daily. Thanks Satguys!
Since he has an AZbox Premium Plus, I would suggest doing a blind scan at whatever point his analog meter peaks, to see if he gets any channels at all. Hopefully he would get something that would tell him if he was pointed at a satellite, even if it was the wrong one.
Jim and Clckwrk,
With the advise from Jim in mind. You can blind scan when your "screaming" meter tells you that you are on to a sat signal (even if it is not the one you were originally seeking). You are certain to log in some channels and then, by identifying the TP and the channels which are logged in from the scan, you can determine which satellite the dish is aimed at. From that information, you can discover how far off and in which direction you are off from your intended target satellite.
RADAR
FatAir and Clckwrk,
Nawh, the info is being saved appropriately. it is just how the AZBox functions when in that specific menu. It can be an annoyance, but what is happening is that the box is reverting to the first TP in the list when Clckwrk backs out and re-enters that menu. Basically, the box is just going back to the starting point in the list of TPs for the sat and that is normal operation. With the AZBox, and the menus that Clckwrk was initially accessing, the system always wants to go back to the start of the list. You have to keep checking the TP selection and resetting it to the target TP that you want.
This is especially true when dabbling with the motor settings. Sometimes the wind blows my mount a little off in the spring and I have to correct this. I don't always want to go outside and physically fix it when it is cold or raining or snowing. But, I can doctor the USALS or the DiSEqC settings to compensate for the error until the weather is more pleasant. In the motor setup menus, when you select a TP and do your thing for adjusting the motor, it always reverts back to the first TP in the list after you have saved your motor software alignment modifications. So, you have to go back and scroll to the TP that you were monitoring to evaluate your motor or dish adjustments.
The desired TP is still in the list, it is just no longer the active one in the menus. The AZBox just went back to the start of the TP list and pulled up the first TP listed. That first TP in the list may not be active or valid, but that is where the software is going to take you regardless.
A really sweet trick is to develop an "alignment channel list" that contains only one known active TP per satellite. As you are testing and swinging your dish around trying to align it, you won't have to take the time to ponder which TP to pull up from the list. There will be only one for every sat. If there is only one TP in the list for a specific sat, you won't have to keep re selecting it. If it is the only one, it will be the first one that pops in for you. This saves you some time and jockeying around with the menus.
Research or ask the members here what the hottest and most consistent TPs are for your target sats. Create an alignment list covering these sats with just one TP each and then, while you are panning your dish to align it, you won't have to constantly reset which TP you are monitoring. It is a time saver in the long run when you are setting up a dish and or a motor.
RADAR
I got it. Scrolling to the first TP. Just the way it was described probably threw me.
The only other 24/7 TPs I have for 83W: 12130 V 15000 and 11840 H 26666, and then evenings- 11957 H 2402(Knives- not 24/7)
They're at the top of my TP lists, all the itinerants towards the bottom. Find a sat, scan it. Later delete the inactive TP's. scan again for itinerants. Also puts all the "channels" at the top of the Chan lists.
The only other 24/7 TPs I have for 83W: 12130 V 15000 and 11840 H 26666, and then evenings- 11957 H 2402(Knives- not 24/7)
Don't feel bad, same one I pulled when I set up my first small dish. Had it at the same angle as the 8 foot BUD. And that sure did not work!!!
SatAV hit it just right. When I hit 83 today, I put my digital block angle meter on the dish face and it was 24. something angle. Keep working on it and it will show up at sometime.
It's some time since I had an AZ box but I seem to remember it would accept a SR of 4 figures but not retain it uless you put in a zero first to make it 5 figures
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