On another forum someone asked a question about who believes alien life has visited earth. I was very surprised it was running about 80% who believed aliens in UFOs have been here. There seems to be more science oriented people here so I thought I would ask the question. Who here believes aliens have visited earth in UFOs?
Alien visitors (UFOs)
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I don't believe that aliens have have visited the Earth. That is how I know they are intelligent aliens.
Mario
Mario
What if all the ufos are nothing more than future earth people that are traveling back in time to see what we are doing. Maybe they are trying to change the outcome of their future by messing with our present. Oh wait a minute, that is the plot of the 4400.
As there is no public evidence of Aliens ever visiting the earth, one could immediately say no. I once heard a very compelling argument why Aliens have not visited earth. First you have to look at Humanity in general in our own history. Throughout our history we humans have felt compelled to conquer any civilization that is inferior to us. The Romans did it; Alexander the Great did it; Hitler did it; the European countries did it and the USA has done it. This means that we as a civilization feel compelled to conquer any other weak countries. Now if Aliens have visited earth, wouldn't you think that the same has been done. Here is the reason.
First in the Scientific World there are Three Type of Civilizations - type 1, 2, & 3. Type 1 is the one that has learned to use energy resources like the sun (fusion energy which will never run out) for its energy use. Type 2 civilization has been able to travel within its own solar system. Visiting other planets within its solar system. Type 3 has accomplished inter galaxy travel. Now if Aliens visited earth, this means that they are type 3 civilization. A civilization so advanced that you could multiply by millions the times that they are more advanced and intelligent than us since we are type 0 since humans are still dependant on oil and coal to satisfy their energy needs. Given that the Aliens are type 3, they wouldn't hesitate to conquer us and the human civilization would be conquered without problems. The only reason that you wouldn't think this way is if you really believe that the Aliens are good and are just here to look at us but what will they gain by this?
Here's the other compelling argument. The Aliens have not visited us because it requires tremendous amount of light years for inter galaxy travel. If one was to create wornholes to do so, then you need to master how to create them and that requires so much energy that no physics that we know today can put it into a useful application. Therefore, one explanation is that we ourselves could be Aliens. Who is to say that the first micro-organism came from the solar system. The earth was formed from millions of different rocks that came together from different part of the universe. It is possible that the first micro-organism came from out of space and we ourselves are Aliens from some other place. Some in a sense we (the Aliens) have already visited earth.
In my own opinion, I am open-minded about it since there is good arguments on both side of the coins. I would not say no either way but keep an open mind.
First in the Scientific World there are Three Type of Civilizations - type 1, 2, & 3. Type 1 is the one that has learned to use energy resources like the sun (fusion energy which will never run out) for its energy use. Type 2 civilization has been able to travel within its own solar system. Visiting other planets within its solar system. Type 3 has accomplished inter galaxy travel. Now if Aliens visited earth, this means that they are type 3 civilization. A civilization so advanced that you could multiply by millions the times that they are more advanced and intelligent than us since we are type 0 since humans are still dependant on oil and coal to satisfy their energy needs. Given that the Aliens are type 3, they wouldn't hesitate to conquer us and the human civilization would be conquered without problems. The only reason that you wouldn't think this way is if you really believe that the Aliens are good and are just here to look at us but what will they gain by this?
Here's the other compelling argument. The Aliens have not visited us because it requires tremendous amount of light years for inter galaxy travel. If one was to create wornholes to do so, then you need to master how to create them and that requires so much energy that no physics that we know today can put it into a useful application. Therefore, one explanation is that we ourselves could be Aliens. Who is to say that the first micro-organism came from the solar system. The earth was formed from millions of different rocks that came together from different part of the universe. It is possible that the first micro-organism came from out of space and we ourselves are Aliens from some other place. Some in a sense we (the Aliens) have already visited earth.
In my own opinion, I am open-minded about it since there is good arguments on both side of the coins. I would not say no either way but keep an open mind.
I don't think we have been visited, but I think it is quite ignorant and arrogant to think that we are the only life in the universe.
Here is a picture from the Hubble telescope of the Ultra Deep Field. Those are not stars but galaxies containing millions of stars and their planets.
Here is a picture from the Hubble telescope of the Ultra Deep Field. Those are not stars but galaxies containing millions of stars and their planets.
mwgiii said:
This is very true. Here's an analogy if you take all the sand in the beach an just take one pebble out of the sand, that will be our galaxy (the milky way). The rest will be the Universe which has billions and billions of galaxies and planets as mwgiii mentioned.
I know this is getting political now but Issac Assimov (sp?) and other science fiction novelist have written about how we humans have our political conflicts and war. If we stop a second and understand how inmense the universe is, we could probably stop everything we are doing and work together to achive the goal of getting out of our own galaxy and start looking for other civilizations. We are so small in this universe and yet we can only look within earth sometimes and do not look beyond that.
All good points Sean Mota. When an advanced civilization comes into contact with a primitive one, no outcome is feasible other than conquer.
My thoughts were that for such an advanced lifeform to even exist is
problematic. Humans evolved into what we are today because of an extraordinary set of circumstances. Not only would these circumstances need to be duplicated elsewhere but they need to exist for an incredibly longer time period on a stable planetary system. Evolution takes time and the more advanced the lifeform the longer it would take and hence the less likely it is to exist. Consider that it must evolve from a one celled creature to being able to circumvent the laws of physics (light-speed travel) without being destroyed by some cosmic event. Quite a challenge.
Additionally it must exist at the same time as we do and it must find us on our small speck of a planet.
Does any life exist anywhere else? Most likely yes.
Will it ever visit earth? No way.
My thoughts were that for such an advanced lifeform to even exist is
problematic. Humans evolved into what we are today because of an extraordinary set of circumstances. Not only would these circumstances need to be duplicated elsewhere but they need to exist for an incredibly longer time period on a stable planetary system. Evolution takes time and the more advanced the lifeform the longer it would take and hence the less likely it is to exist. Consider that it must evolve from a one celled creature to being able to circumvent the laws of physics (light-speed travel) without being destroyed by some cosmic event. Quite a challenge.
Additionally it must exist at the same time as we do and it must find us on our small speck of a planet.
Does any life exist anywhere else? Most likely yes.
Will it ever visit earth? No way.
Let me see if I've got this right:
Incredibly advanced beings develop the technology and the will to visit us, but wish to remain unseen. Yet with all their abilities, we've seen them, off and on.
Gee, I rather imagine if they didn't want to be seen or detected, we would not see or detect them.
Life elsewhere? Yes, I think the odds strongly favor it. Maybe even life elsewhere in our solar system.
Intelligent? Maybe. Visiting us? Why?
Incredibly advanced beings develop the technology and the will to visit us, but wish to remain unseen. Yet with all their abilities, we've seen them, off and on.
Gee, I rather imagine if they didn't want to be seen or detected, we would not see or detect them.
Life elsewhere? Yes, I think the odds strongly favor it. Maybe even life elsewhere in our solar system.
Intelligent? Maybe. Visiting us? Why?
Any civilization that has managed to survive long enough to become that advanced, to actually travel here and visit us, would likely have no desire to do so.
We are as intelligent as insects by comparison, so what could they possibly learn from us other than by observing (and occasionally stepping on) us.
We are as intelligent as insects by comparison, so what could they possibly learn from us other than by observing (and occasionally stepping on) us.
NightHawk said:
Of course you are assuming that evolution is a fact. Remember, it is just a theory.
Maybe nothing on Earth actually evolved. Maybe it was genetically engineered to be "better". Maybe the Earth is just a giant Alien Chia Pet, and "visiting Aliens" are just scientists studying our progress. Maybe we can't understand their reasons because they are so far beyond us that anything they do is just incomprehensible, or "alien" to us. Who knows? I've never seen one.
NightHawk said:
How can we apply human behavior/ history /nature on this planet to other life forms in the universe? Its arrogant and IMO ignorant. It presumes that they are as stupid as we are.
I do believe in Extra Teresteral life, I believe they have been observing us, however just like in Star Trek there is a prime directive where they will not directly get involved with us till the time is right.
Over the years I believe there have been incidents such as roswell where they where observing us and something went wrong.
Other than that, I believe the computer revolution was a direct result of alien technology starting about the time the first transisters where introduced to the public.
As far as travel, I think "Warp drive" is possible, or at the very least the technology to fold space and create our own wormholes.
There was a documentry on a few months ago on how star trek changed the world with william shatner and they had alot of things from star trek the origional series that have become a reality today
Over the years I believe there have been incidents such as roswell where they where observing us and something went wrong.
Other than that, I believe the computer revolution was a direct result of alien technology starting about the time the first transisters where introduced to the public.
As far as travel, I think "Warp drive" is possible, or at the very least the technology to fold space and create our own wormholes.
There was a documentry on a few months ago on how star trek changed the world with william shatner and they had alot of things from star trek the origional series that have become a reality today
: 
I think we humans are anomolies; freaks so to speak. Other life? I think not. Of course, those who say yes, know as much as I do .... and that's nothing.....
vurbano said:
You watched too much Star Trek. There was no need to call me ignorant. You could be right but it would naive to assume an relatively advanced life form would be some type of noble benevolent creature. The more likely possibility is a lifeform concerned solely with survival and as we observe here on this planet survival of any species is usually at the expence of another. We don't sit around observing chickens to see how they live, we exploit them. Do you feel stupid about dominating the chicken's society?
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Roadwarrior said:Of course you are assuming that evolution is a fact. Remember, it is just a theory.
Of course my whole theory asumes your not a creationist. Evolution is science and all science goes out the window if you can just say god did it.
I am always reminded of a conversation in "Contact" when one of the people in a top-level meeting was talking about possible invasion if they built the machine in the plans sent by the message:
"Why that's rediculous! That would be like us going over to Africa to kick over an ant hill!"
"...And how would you feel if we went over to Africa to kick over an ant hill?"
IOW, we think nothing of killing thousands of ants.
Do I believe that there is other life in the universe? You betcha!
The chain of events that led to the creation of life on Earth is NOT that miraculous. It is a combination of very common elements that ALWAYS react the same way under the same conditions. Whether happenstance or the way God wanted it is not the issue. The genesis of ameno acids and other basic blocks of life and the eventual combination into animate material is not in question. It is an unbeleivably simple reaction of elements that are abundant in all parts of the observable universe. Given Billions of years, a time span that is inconceivably long to most, genesis will happen in the "Goldielocks Zone" every time. (Area where temperatures are neither too hot or too cold for the proper reactions). The question is: How many goldielocks zones are there and how many different combinations are possible?
Is the other intelligent life? That is more difficult. This is where we need to take into account many other variables. This is from memory and may be a little off, but IIRC the equation is as follows:
Intelligent civilizations with the ability to travel the stars
is equal to
The number of stars that have a suitable lifespan to have allowed evolution to occur 3b+ years
times
The fraction of those stars that have a planetary system
times
The fraction of the stars with planets that have "earth-like" qualities, most importantly, liquid water.
times
The fraction of those planets where life actually developes
times
The fraction of those planets where intelligence developes (remember the Earth had life for over 3 billion years before intelligence as we define it developed) There is another equation for this variable
times
The fraction of the intelligent creatures that develop technology
times
The fraction of these civilizations that survive long enough to develop the advanced technology for space travel and have the political and economic ability to persue it. We humans have had the ability to explore (not with probes, but with manned missions) other planets in our own solar system, but political and economic pressures have kept us essentially grounded for over 34 years! Imagine the cost of interstellar technology! It is available now in its most basic forms, but it is cost-prohibitive.
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Do I believe that we have been visited by extra terrestrial intelligence?
Take into account all the variables above and then figure in the unbeleivable vastless of our universe and figure out how plausible it is that another intelligent life-form would be near enough to even care to come to Earth. Even if the numbers above work to be in the billions or even hundreds of billions of other intelligent life forms flying around and it is just like Star Trek, the chances are amazingly slim.
This is even taking into account the RF beacon we are casting out into space. The Earth has been undetectable until the last 75-100 years. There is nothing about this planet that would attract any attention otherwise. It is like trying to see a gnat next to one of millions and millions of bon fires along all the coast lines and recognizing that one gnat as "special". IOW, bloody unlikely that it would happen by chance!
We started broadcasting into space at the speed of light (quite unintetionally) Our signals have really only gone 75-100 light years at best. Some one within that sphere would have to be listening, be able to interpret the signal for what it is and respond. Since the first "real" aien sigting was in 1947 that means that the aliens would have had to be within 10-20 light years. (never mind that alien visits have been part of folklore since antiquety--see "Charriot of the Gods") Considering that the Milky Way (our galaxy) is about 300,000 light years accross, that is even more unlikely.
But now that makes us a firefly next to one of billions of bon fires.
What is arrogant is for anyone to think that we, as a civilization are interesting enough for an alien civilization to care unless you subscribe to the "Chia Pet" theory.
See ya
Tony
"Why that's rediculous! That would be like us going over to Africa to kick over an ant hill!"
"...And how would you feel if we went over to Africa to kick over an ant hill?"
IOW, we think nothing of killing thousands of ants.
Do I believe that there is other life in the universe? You betcha!
The chain of events that led to the creation of life on Earth is NOT that miraculous. It is a combination of very common elements that ALWAYS react the same way under the same conditions. Whether happenstance or the way God wanted it is not the issue. The genesis of ameno acids and other basic blocks of life and the eventual combination into animate material is not in question. It is an unbeleivably simple reaction of elements that are abundant in all parts of the observable universe. Given Billions of years, a time span that is inconceivably long to most, genesis will happen in the "Goldielocks Zone" every time. (Area where temperatures are neither too hot or too cold for the proper reactions). The question is: How many goldielocks zones are there and how many different combinations are possible?
Is the other intelligent life? That is more difficult. This is where we need to take into account many other variables. This is from memory and may be a little off, but IIRC the equation is as follows:
Intelligent civilizations with the ability to travel the stars
is equal to
The number of stars that have a suitable lifespan to have allowed evolution to occur 3b+ years
times
The fraction of those stars that have a planetary system
times
The fraction of the stars with planets that have "earth-like" qualities, most importantly, liquid water.
times
The fraction of those planets where life actually developes
times
The fraction of those planets where intelligence developes (remember the Earth had life for over 3 billion years before intelligence as we define it developed) There is another equation for this variable
times
The fraction of the intelligent creatures that develop technology
times
The fraction of these civilizations that survive long enough to develop the advanced technology for space travel and have the political and economic ability to persue it. We humans have had the ability to explore (not with probes, but with manned missions) other planets in our own solar system, but political and economic pressures have kept us essentially grounded for over 34 years! Imagine the cost of interstellar technology! It is available now in its most basic forms, but it is cost-prohibitive.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do I believe that we have been visited by extra terrestrial intelligence?
Take into account all the variables above and then figure in the unbeleivable vastless of our universe and figure out how plausible it is that another intelligent life-form would be near enough to even care to come to Earth. Even if the numbers above work to be in the billions or even hundreds of billions of other intelligent life forms flying around and it is just like Star Trek, the chances are amazingly slim.
This is even taking into account the RF beacon we are casting out into space. The Earth has been undetectable until the last 75-100 years. There is nothing about this planet that would attract any attention otherwise. It is like trying to see a gnat next to one of millions and millions of bon fires along all the coast lines and recognizing that one gnat as "special". IOW, bloody unlikely that it would happen by chance!
We started broadcasting into space at the speed of light (quite unintetionally) Our signals have really only gone 75-100 light years at best. Some one within that sphere would have to be listening, be able to interpret the signal for what it is and respond. Since the first "real" aien sigting was in 1947 that means that the aliens would have had to be within 10-20 light years. (never mind that alien visits have been part of folklore since antiquety--see "Charriot of the Gods"
) Considering that the Milky Way (our galaxy) is about 300,000 light years accross, that is even more unlikely.But now that makes us a firefly next to one of billions of bon fires.
What is arrogant is for anyone to think that we, as a civilization are interesting enough for an alien civilization to care unless you subscribe to the "Chia Pet" theory.
See ya
Tony
TNG
Each of those planetary systems also orbits a star with gravity. Giant cosmic magnets that attract life destroying projectiles like comets and asteroids. It's happened here several times in the life of the planet and will happen again. Advanced evolution has to almost do a restart each time. If not for big ole Jupiter being out there sucking up the vast majority of them I doubt we would be the same. Many planetary systems probably won't have a similar situation and it further reduces the chance of highly evolved lifeforms.
Each of those planetary systems also orbits a star with gravity. Giant cosmic magnets that attract life destroying projectiles like comets and asteroids. It's happened here several times in the life of the planet and will happen again. Advanced evolution has to almost do a restart each time. If not for big ole Jupiter being out there sucking up the vast majority of them I doubt we would be the same. Many planetary systems probably won't have a similar situation and it further reduces the chance of highly evolved lifeforms.
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