Actuator Frustrations

[iBoston]

I have a Super Jack Harl 3636 that i got with my new dish. The position tracking is horrible. I cannot setup more than a couple a satellite positions, and i try and go back to a previous satellite, and its off by 5 or 6 ticks. Its horrible.

I am using the ribbon cable specifically for satellites. its got the two RG6 the shielded lines which i am using for the sensor for the mover. Ill recheck the wire connections, but what are your inputs as to what is going on. Is it the cheap actuator?? or what?

The cable length is about 70 feet.

 

[Titanium]

Is the motor landing short of the programmed position or is it driving past the programmed position?

What group of wires is used for the switch sensor wires? Shielded? If so, where is the shield connected?

Is the dish grounded? If so, where? If the dish has a separate ground, is it bonded to the structure ground?

 

[iBoston]

Is the motor landing short of the programmed position or is it driving past the programmed position?

What group of wires is used for the switch sensor wires? Shielded? If so, where is the shield connected?

Is the dish grounded? If so, where? If the dish has a separate ground, is it bonded to the structure ground?

Ill have to pay more attention. I've been moving the dish around so much, my head is spinning.. Not sure if ts coming short or driving past. Ill check that tomorrow.

Yes, it is the two shielded wires. Are you asking if the shielding mesh is connected to anything? No, it is not.. What should it be connected too??

What do you mean by the dish being grounded? Its 4 feet in the ground. To me, that's grounded. I do plan on grounding the RG6, but it is not currently grounded. The RG6 will be grounded to the grounded house line, as that is how the other dish is grounded.

 

[Titanium]

While it is possible that you have a bad switch, it is unlikely.

The current grounding and lack of shield connection to ground (earthing) is likely the cause.

If a wire group has a shield and it is not connected to ground, it is not providing any shielding. Connect the shield only on one end and probably best to only connect to structure ground near your controller.

Your grounding solution is quite different than code and likely will cause some problems. If your dish is not bonded to structure ground, there are two grounds on your system. This creates a "voltage potential" and naturally occurring voltage will flow towards the grounding that has least resistance. It also can create noise on the system and direct voltage and noise into parts of your system where it deafens or potentially damage. The coax shield is not a suitable bonding wire and can direct voltage and noise through LNBs, switches, controller and receiver.

A simple test right now is to disconnect all wires and with a voltage tester set to AC, test between all wires coming in from the dish and the found on the wall outlet. .6 volts is typically considered the maximum voltage before damage can start occurring. And voltage is creating noise. Noise will mask. switch counts.

 

[iBoston]

While it is possible that you have a bad switch, it is unlikely.

The current grounding and lack of shield connection to ground (earthing) is likely the cause.

If a wire group has a shield and it is not connected to ground, it is not providing any shielding. Connect the shield only on one end and probably best to only connect to structure ground near your controller.

Your grounding solution is quite different than code and likely will cause some problems. If your dish is not bonded to structure ground, there are two grounds on your system. This creates a "voltage potential" and naturally occurring voltage will flow towards the grounding that has least resistance. It also can create noise on the system and direct voltage and noise into parts of your system where it deafens or potentially damage. The coax shield is not a suitable bonding wire and can direct voltage and noise through LNBs, switches, controller and receiver.

A simple test right now is to disconnect all wires and with a voltage tester set to AC, test between all wires coming in from the dish and the found on the wall outlet. .6 volts is typically considered the maximum voltage before damage can start occurring. And voltage is creating noise. Noise will mask. switch counts.

Just to be clear - you're saying the DISH pole itself should be grounded into the AC ground in the house as well as the sensor wires and RG6 wires???

 

[FaT Air]

Yup. But, to ground the dish/pole a separate ground conductor should be used.
I'd add a ground block at the entry point to the house. Run a ground lead to the houses ground.
Run the coax's thru it. Also ground the shield of the sensor lead (two conductor) to the ground block also. DO NOT connect the shield's at the dish. Maybe also connect the servo wires(3 conductor), if not used, and it's shield to the ground block. If not used, maybe use (all) these for the pole/dish ground??

 

[Titanium]

The dish pole should be BONDED to the structure ground. Wire bundle shielding should be connected on one end - preferably to the structure ground. The coax should also be grounded to structure ground before entering the home.

If you still experience switch count errors, place a shunt capacitor across the motor leads at the actuator. You might also place a capacitor across the controller sensor terminals. Might also make two loops around a ferrite bead (or clamp type) on both ends of the sensor wires cable run.

 

[iBoston]

Okay, i have ground blocked the shielding wire on the motor sensor, as well as ground blocked the RG6. I have yet to test the back and forth. I will do that in a day or two and post back. Thank you for your input.

I will also take the advise and use the servo wires to ground the dish. (not yet done)

 

[Titanium]

Some ground may be better than no ground, but I think not. Personally, I certainly would not ground the dish with multiple undersized 18-22 gauge wires bundled with other wiring and running inside the house through my expensive electronics.

The dish should bond directly to the structure ground or suitable bonding points such as a metal cold water pipe. The ground wire should be calculated to be 12g or heavier depending on the distance.

Keep it outside your house and away from your toys!

 

[iBoston]

There are no copper pipes, or cold water line. We are on well, and the line is plastic. The only thing i can ground too is the panel. The panel is not easily accessible. The meter is too far away (400+ feet) to get to that. I'm gonna have to think that one through for awhile.


Ps. Keeping the ground outside is impossible for my place. there is no ground outside.

 

[Radioguy41]

There should be a separate ground wire.

 

[Radioguy41]

There are no copper pipes, or cold water line. We are on well, and the line is plastic. The only thing i can ground too is the panel. The panel is not easily accessible. The meter is too far away (400+ feet) to get to that. I'm gonna have to think that one through for awhile.

The dish should be grounded but it has nothing to do with the actuator working correctly or not so don't get sidetracked. The ribbon harness should have a separate thin bare copper ground wire that needs to be connected as in the diagram above. The other end should connect to a ground lug on the back of the dish mover if this is the type of ribbon harness you have.

 

[Titanium]

Where are your utilities grounded? Outside the wall where the electrical panel is mounted is the most likely location for the ground rod. If your home passed an electrical inspection, it has a ground rod. Often the telephone, cable or subscription satellite system has a separate ground rod, but it will be bonded to the structure ground.

I agree that the most likely fix is connecting the shield drain wire to ground, if the dish is not bonded to structure ground don't connect the shield's drain wire at the dish. Only connect the shield to ground inside near the controller.

I will beg to differ with jeepguy that an ungrounded dish would not be a cause. If your system has a significant voltage potential, it could be the reason the positioner is not properly counting the pulses. A cheap voltage meter testing the AC voltage as I previously described between the wires running out to the dish and the electrical outlet ground will quickly reveal if the voltage potential is present. Voltage potential will increase and decrease based on the soil conductivity.

 

[iBoston]

If memory serves me, I believe there is a thick strand of copper wire that is laid out flat 3-4 feet underground. Tranquility within family would be kept if i did NOT go digging into the garden for that! Yes, it is on the other side of the wall to the panel, but the panel is in the basement, and the copper ground goes directly into the wall to the outside under ground level.

As for utilities, we have no utilities other than electricity.

 

[iBoston]

No improvement at all. Its horrible. I went from 105 to 131. Couldn't find 131 hunted and pecked gave up, probably because i chose the wrong transponder to grab, so, went back to 105. Had to nudge the dish 15 times to get it back into position. That's off by almost 2 degrees. Its appears to be stopping well short of the position its supposed to be at.

 

[Titanium]

If memory serves me, I believe there is a thick strand of copper wire that is laid out flat 3-4 feet underground. Tranquility within family would be kept if i did NOT go digging into the garden for that! Yes, it is on the other side of the wall to the panel, but the panel is in the basement, and the copper ground goes directly into the wall to the outside under ground level.

As for utilities, we have no utilities other than electricity.

Yep, connect to that wire. It is either the ground wire or a bonding wire that runs to the meter.


When it is stopping short of the position, extra counts are being counted. Either the reed switch is creating multiple contacts during each (open/close) cycle (called switch bounce) or RF noise is being interpreted by the controller as switch closures.

Failing reed switches often have switch bounce and might temporary work better if the actuator angle is rotated to change the angle of the switch.

RF noise can be addressed via my previous testing, grounding/bonding and filtering suggestions.

Good luck troubleshooting![/QUOTE]

 

[iBoston]

Okay, well, i temporarily grounded the dish by running a cable from the dish through the window in the basement and grounded to the copper wire that runs from the Panel to the outside. This has made no difference either, although i was hoping, because i hooked up a meter like Titanium suggested and did get some voltage.

Something else is weird that i noticed.. I don't know if this is part of the same issue or another issue altogether. I noticed i can move from sat A to sat B and i see the dish move, but it doesnt apparently park in the right place, because no signal, then i can move back to the original position sat A, and i get a signal, and then tell it again to go to sat B and this time it tracks right to sat B and i get a strong signal. What the heck is that all about???

 

[Titanium]

An actuator reed switch or noise in the system could not cause that to happen. If it was a count error, the position would remain incorrect. It would not return to a preprogrammed position once the count is wrong.

Try resetting the controller and only program in two or three satellites. Might be a controller logic issue.

What voltage readings did you measure on the wires coming in from the dish?

 

[iBoston]

What voltage readings did you measure on the wires coming in from the dish?

I don't have that kind of meter. It just tells me theirs voltage, and i can adjust the sensitivity on it. I have another meter on order that will replace my old one that broke. Ill tell you that info in a couple days.

 

[lamp]

An actuator reed switch or noise in the system could not cause that to happen. If it was a count error, the position would remain incorrect. It would not return to a preprogrammed position once the count is wrong.

Try resetting the controller and only program in two or three satellites. Might be a controller logic issue.

What voltage readings did you measure on the wires coming in from the dish?

I have a question about this voltage measurement. Do I understand right that you would leave every thing connected at the dish then disconnect all wires in the house at the receiver and motor controller and look for voltage on the wires in the house?