811 grainy reception

[planestress]

I have had a Mitsubishi (WS-55313) rear projection
HDTV for about a year. The picture with standard
cable was not good. Last fall, I tried digital cable
(Cox) and the HD channels were excellent and the
digital channels were quite a bit better than
standard. But the majority of the channels that I
actually watch were not broadcast in digital. And the
non-digital channels actually looked worse with
digital cable. (??)

Thinking that digital signals were the answer, I had
Dish Network satellite installed today. The satellite
looks fine on the conventional TV's but not the HDTV.
The HD channels are good but the digital channels are
just as bad as the standard (non-digital) channels
were with digital cable. The faces look very grainy.
Picture can't seem to keep up with fast action like
football. The installer agreed and we tried a number
of things: switching between 480 and 1080i and running
the signal from the non-HD receiver. The installer
office tech said that Dish's signal is 720P and my TV
does not support that. He says there is compression
going on to convert to either 480 or 1080. He says
that if a TV does not have 720P, it is "simulated" HD.
I have not heard that term but it sounds bogus to me.
I have heard of Enhanced definition TV's that try to
upconvert? the signal to near HD quality but that is
not what I have.

Do you have any idea what the problem could be and if
there is a work-around. I have a 3 day grace period
to have them remove the dish if I am not satisfied.
But if cable doesn't work and neither does satellite,
I don't know of any other option for getting an
acceptable picture.

 

[ShadowEKU]

See this thread for eplanation of the whole ditial and compression issues

http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=40647

 

[AcuraCL]

How are you connected (811 to tv)?

What are your current settings (HDTV setup)?

 

[upNdown]

I'm not sure that thread is an appropriate response. The original poster states that the dish signal looks fine on his standard tv's. Unless I read this wrong, the graininess he's complaining about is only visable on the HD tv, but not on HD channels. Is this correct, planetstress?

My dish HD programming is generally gorgeous. And Standard Definition Dish programming looks great on my standard definition TV's. But some Dish SD programming looks lousy on my HD tv.

From all the research I've done, I've come up with two explanations.

1) Standard Definition progamming often looks lousier on an HD tv than it does on an SD tv. This varies based on variables, but across the board it is often true. I believe this and have accepted it.

2) The local channels I receive from the Dish network have poor picture quality, most noticable on my HDTV, but noticble on my SD tvs as well. I was told that this is because the local signal is being sent across the country before it goes up to the sattelite, then back down to me. I'm not sure if this is true, but it makes sense to me. It explains why cable stations such as SciFi and History channel etc look better than the local channels, even though they are both standard definition.

Does any of this make sense? Does this sound like your situation, planetstress? Can anybody confirm or deny any of this?

 

[WeeJavaDude]

Couple things to look at.

1) What is your HD TV set to? Has it been ISF Calibrated? Are you set to Vivid? Try the other picture modes. Vivid will produce a much more grainer look with the Dish Signal.

2) The Simulated HD is bogus. My understanding is that Dish just passes on what the providers are providing. In some cases it is 720p and other 1080i. You should get a good HD picture setting it to 1080i.

3) Now on to SD. How big is your TV and how far are you sitting from it? If you try and stretch SD on a large RPTV it will start to get fuzzy. From what you describe, and ISF calibration or using a DVD calibration disk like AVIA might help you situation. Another thing to keep in mind with SD, your 811 will take the SD and upconvert it to 720p or 1080i. Usually your TV does a better job with up converting so passing it a 480p signal might improve things. Also you might want to do a comparision between your svideo input on SD and your Component/DVI input.

I would not expect a lot from SD on big screens. You can improve things but dont expect it looking anything near HD.

How I improved my SD.

1) Calibrated my TV using Avia. I have a Sony GWII Rear Project LCD.
2) I am sitting 12' back from a 60" TV. For a 60" this is the minum I would sit from it. the farther back you are the better the PQ seems.
3) Purchased a Power Conditionar. This in my case improved PQ. Mileage will vary.

Hope this helps... To get the best SD PQ on a Big screen takes some effort. Digital SD was not designed to run on big screen HD sets by any means.

 

[planestress]

I'm definately new to this so excuse me if my responses sound wrong.

I am connected using component cables, 1080i. I don't know what ISF calibrated means so probably not. I couldn't find any settings called "vivid". I fiddled with some of the video settings but it didn't seem to improve the graininess/pixelazation. It's a 55" widescreen and I normally sit about 9' away - a little closer while it's pulled away from the wall to make connections.

I didn't expect the SD channels to look like HD but I thought they would look better than analog cable. When I had digital cable, the digital channels looked much better than what I have right now with the dish. But the analog channels were horrible.

Also, we had an ice storm today and the local channels have been out all day. Not a good start.

Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[Tom in TX]

I, too, have a 55" Mitsubishi. The HD looks fantastic! The SD has far less quality, due to being enlarged that much. The SD looks fine on my 31" regular TV, but to enlarge the SD signal to 55" results in a somewhat grainy picture. Some chennels are better than others.
Tom in TX

 

[AcuraCL]

...I am connected using component cables, 1080i. ....

Any chance you can connect with DVI?

Many people don't see much diff. I have seen my tv in countless stores connected through component (I check). It always looks grainier to me than my same tv at home (connected via DVI).

If you don't have DVI on the set, there is a small chance that a better grade of cable could improve things.

 

[upNdown]

I'm definately new to this so excuse me if my responses sound wrong.

I am connected using component cables, 1080i. I don't know what ISF calibrated means so probably not. I couldn't find any settings called "vivid". I fiddled with some of the video settings but it didn't seem to improve the graininess/pixelazation. It's a 55" widescreen and I normally sit about 9' away - a little closer while it's pulled away from the wall to make connections.

I didn't expect the SD channels to look like HD but I thought they would look better than analog cable. When I had digital cable, the digital channels looked much better than what I have right now with the dish. But the analog channels were horrible.

Also, we had an ice storm today and the local channels have been out all day. Not a good start.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Hey planetstress, in reference to my previous post, which SD channels look horrible? Is it all of them or is it only the local channels? Without a doubt my SD locals through the dish look worse than they did on analog cable on all my tv's. Most of the other SD channels look better than analog cable on my SD tv's. But, on my HDTV, I'd say that the SD dish content looks about the same as cable did (except the locals, whish look dreadful).

Just my opinion here, but if you have 3 days to get out of it, and you're unhappy with it, I'd say get out of it. I'm happy with the Dish Network because they're SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than Comcast Cable. In terms on channels, I'm getting much more for much less $$. But if it was strictly a picture quality thing, and money wasn't a factor, I'd probably be back with cable.

 

[WeeJavaDude]

I'm definately new to this so excuse me if my responses sound wrong.

I am connected using component cables, 1080i. I don't know what ISF calibrated means so probably not. I couldn't find any settings called "vivid". I fiddled with some of the video settings but it didn't seem to improve the graininess/pixelazation. It's a 55" widescreen and I normally sit about 9' away - a little closer while it's pulled away from the wall to make connections.

I didn't expect the SD channels to look like HD but I thought they would look better than analog cable. When I had digital cable, the digital channels looked much better than what I have right now with the dish. But the analog channels were horrible.

Also, we had an ice storm today and the local channels have been out all day. Not a good start.

Thanks for the suggestions.

ISF calibration is when some tech comes in and calibrates your RPTV. with RPTVs it is recommended to maximize your Picture Quality.

Sorry.. Vivid is usually a Sony thing on my TVs. There is usually some pre-defined settings. that is what I was referring too. When set to what is equivilant to "Vivid" things look more grainy and very bright. You might want to at a minimum invest in a Home Theater calibratin DVD like AVIA and give that a try to tune your set.

Have you compared your s-video quality vs your component when watching SD? What did you find?

Like the previous posts.. What channels are you seeing this on? Locals? Do you have any movie channels like HBO? Try it on these and compare to your locals.

Do you have another T.V. to compare?

9' on a 55" screen is a little close but should be ok. If you can step to about 12-15 feet and see if the picture improves. Sounds funny I know but there viewing distance is a factor with precieved PQ. Walk closer to the set and you will see the effect.

 

[planestress]

My locals have not been available the last 2 days - the satellite with the locals is not available - presumably due to the ice storm we've had here.

The picture looks grainy on all channels whether they are local or not. History channel is a little better than others. It's very noticable on peoples faces. Also, fast action like football/basketball is very bad - it's like the tv can't keep up with the action. The picture is worse than my analog cable from comparable distance. I guess I'm confused why digital SD channels looked OK from digital cable but not from the Dish. Is there a different kind of signal manipulation going on?

I will try hooking up an s-video cable tonight and see if it's any better. I don't have a dvi cable.

Thanks again for the helpp and suggestions.

 

[WeeJavaDude]

My locals have not been available the last 2 days - the satellite with the locals is not available - presumably due to the ice storm we've had here.

The picture looks grainy on all channels whether they are local or not. History channel is a little better than others. It's very noticable on peoples faces. Also, fast action like football/basketball is very bad - it's like the tv can't keep up with the action. The picture is worse than my analog cable from comparable distance. I guess I'm confused why digital SD channels looked OK from digital cable but not from the Dish. Is there a different kind of signal manipulation going on?

I will try hooking up an s-video cable tonight and see if it's any better. I don't have a dvi cable.

Thanks again for the helpp and suggestions.

Hmmm. without getting into too many technical details. Video with lots of moving objects result in creating more artificates with MPEG compression. Sports is the worse. With DVD, you are able to handle this by raising the bit rate. With Dish stream you don't have enough band width and more artifacts are introduced as a result. This also happen with Cable Digital. I am not sure if the band widths differ that much, but my understand was they do not.

I really think the s-video test will provide another reference point. The s-video will use the TV scaler. If you are not happy with PQ, making some adjustment on your set my minimize the effects. As I said, getting a Home theater calibration DVD is a helpful addition to tune in PQ.

Not sure what else to say. Without actually seeing the picture it is really hard to say if things are good are bad. You should get the best picture with your premium channels so using them as a top end bench mark is a good idea.

 

[Foxbat]

planetstress, I have your set's big brother, a WS-55613. I am using my 6000 connected via component cables, and I'm pretty pleased with the SD channels for the most part. Am I correct in assuming your local channels are coming via Dish and not over-the-air (OTA) via a TV antenna? If so, then Dish is severely compressing the signal to make all your local market channels fit into the space available on the satellite.

One problem a lot of people have with their TVs is the Sharpness too high. Press the "Video" button on the remote until you see this, then try adjusting Sharpness down (left) until you can live with what you see.

You might get better picture quality if you can tune in your local channels via Digital OTA television broadcasts. Check out the Local DTV station guide over on the AVS Forum for information about local DTV reception in your market area.

 

[planestress]

Right now, I don't have any locals because there is apparently something wrong with the satellite that carries them. But they are going to be via Dish, not OTA antenna. I had requested one so I could get my locals in HD but they tried to discourage me from getting one even saying the locals would be carried on HD on the dish in near future. Anyway, I don't know if the locals are better or worse than the other SD signals because I don't have any for comparison.

I got a black screen last night after setting the receiver to 720P which my TV does not support so I couldn't even see a picture to reset it. Dish guy told me to run RCA cables from video out to one of my non digital inputs on the TV to reset to 1080i. He also said I could watch the SD channels off that input and toggle my TV input back and forth from the DTV to "VCR1" jacks for HD vs SD channels. Not very elegant but it did seem to improve the SD picture a little. Still very blurry for fast action sports. I will try turning down sharpness tonight to see if that helps. Also try the calibration disk to see if that helps.

 

[WeeJavaDude]

Right now, I don't have any locals because there is apparently something wrong with the satellite that carries them. But they are going to be via Dish, not OTA antenna. I had requested one so I could get my locals in HD but they tried to discourage me from getting one even saying the locals would be carried on HD on the dish in near future. Anyway, I don't know if the locals are better or worse than the other SD signals because I don't have any for comparison.

I got a black screen last night after setting the receiver to 720P which my TV does not support so I couldn't even see a picture to reset it. Dish guy told me to run RCA cables from video out to one of my non digital inputs on the TV to reset to 1080i. He also said I could watch the SD channels off that input and toggle my TV input back and forth from the DTV to "VCR1" jacks for HD vs SD channels. Not very elegant but it did seem to improve the SD picture a little. Still very blurry for fast action sports. I will try turning down sharpness tonight to see if that helps. Also try the calibration disk to see if that helps.

If you have an HD receiver, getting your locals over OTA if they are digital will greatly improve your local SD PQ. Why? Well the SD is being upcast at the source. Also there is know a lot more local HD available in a lot of areas and having OTA HD is a must if you can get it and have and HD recevier in my opinion. My guess is It will be a long time before Dish offers local HDs. If you mainly watch local channels and can make digital OTA happen, I suggest doing it.

Did you try s-video yet? It should give you a step up in PQ form composite.

 

[planestress]

I did try the s-video and it helped a little - I think that's mostly due to inputing the signal in the non-digital jacks instead of the DTV inputs.

My local Dish installer suggested I try running a video out to my VCR and then back to the TV. He said something about the RF output from the VCR might be better. I tried this but got a "No Signal" message on the TV so I may not have hooked it up right. Has anyone heard of trying this? I didn't really understand his explanation of why it should help. He also offered to bring out a 301 receiver - he thought it would give a better picture for the SD channels. Again, he lost me during his explanation but he seems willing to try some things to improve the PQ. Anyone have any thoughts on either of these ideas? Thanks

 

[WeeJavaDude]

I did try the s-video and it helped a little - I think that's mostly due to inputing the signal in the non-digital jacks instead of the DTV inputs.

My local Dish installer suggested I try running a video out to my VCR and then back to the TV. He said something about the RF output from the VCR might be better. I tried this but got a "No Signal" message on the TV so I may not have hooked it up right. Has anyone heard of trying this? I didn't really understand his explanation of why it should help. He also offered to bring out a 301 receiver - he thought it would give a better picture for the SD channels. Again, he lost me during his explanation but he seems willing to try some things to improve the PQ. Anyone have any thoughts on either of these ideas? Thanks

Here is the how I see Input signal PQ scale. Top being worse. THis is just a rule of thumb and their are other factors involved.

Coax RF
Composite
s-video
Component
DVI

The s-video test was to take out the 811 scaler and use your T.V. scaler. I don't think the VCR things is going to make things any better. For SD you best shot should be s-video into yoru TV. Assuming that your RPTV as a better scaler which they usually do.

The only other things to try and "Tune your TV", try a power conditionar, and sit further back from the set.