Will Be Posting Ku FTA Layout For Review Soon

[DavidBodner]

Hi -

I'm brand new here, albeit at 66 not new in general ;-)

A lot of years experience with electronics, and tv antennas and systems specifically (would you believe 50+!). And just installed a Off-The-Air HDTV, antenna, etc at my place 3 years ago. Works great.

But I have no experience with satellite TV. This spring I will be putting in a Ku FTA system at my inlaws (they have a good shot at the satellite belt; I don't). They have only traditional analog tv with no current plans to update to HDTV.

I will be posting somewhere on here to run my tentative design picks on equipment, etc past you pros. My technical background is very good, but not specifically in satellite tv - so the nomenclature, etc has me a little confused. But, I promise, I will be a quick learner.

Talked with a nice lady at Skyvision yesterday and she cleared up some of my confusion. The digital MPEG thing bothered me, in that we'll be feeding into an analog NTSC receiver. Now I understand that the digital is between the LNB and the MPEG receiver, and that the receiver's output to the NTSC tv set is indeed analog.

I will be checking with you all about many things. As a starter, I'm trying to figure out whether to get the RG6 from Skyvision or just get the lowest loss stuff locally. What I need to know is what is the frequency spectrum of the digital bit stream between the LNB and the MPEG receiver? That way I can make an Engineering judgement whether the 100 feet of RG6 I'll have has acceptable loss.

I think this will be a very interesting forum for me, and be a great learning experience.

Regards,
Dave

David Bodner
Manlius, NY -
Atop Limestone Gorge,
on the edge of forever.

 

[PSB]

Welcome to the SatelliteGuys.US FTA forum!

Get the best RG6 you can afford, quad shield if available, I use solid copper core 2.2GHz cable and never had a problem.

Please keep all your posts on your project here in this thread, nice to have you here

 

[bigOleB]

I was able to buy RG6 Quad at Lowes cheaper than anywhere on the internet.

 

[Mr Tony]

OT...We finally get our Lowes Friday
We have a Home Depot and Menards (well Menards is 15 miles away) but it will be nice to have Lowes.

2nd one in MN is opening in my town

 

[DavidBodner]

Hi Pete, questic, Iceberg,

Nice to meet you all.

I will check out the quad at Home Depot –

What follows is the FTA Ku system I’m proposing to put together for my in-laws, Kate and Harry. All the parts and plans are subject to change, except that we can’t do C Band because of space limitations. I’ve never done one of these systems before – so I’d appreciate your comments, suggestions, criticisms, etc. All numbers below are Skyvision numbers, at least initially.

This will start out as a manually adjusted system; that is, we will aim and watch one satellite for, say, a week and then readjust manually to some other satellite on the arc – until we get a look at them all, and then my in-laws can decide if they want just one satellite OR if we should upgrade them with a positioner.

Now a digression. My understanding is that linear polarization direction is called “skew” in this stuff. That’s fine because it’s easier to spell ;-)
My assumption is that any particular satellite will have both horizontal and vertical skew transponders/channels, perhaps even circular? So, with manual adjustment, we have to readjust (re-skew?) at the LNB to go from one to the other (or add a piece of equipment to the LNB in the case of circular). That I sort of get. What confuses me is that I hear that by adding the positioner the various skews (H or V) are automatically compensated for. It makes some sense that along the arc the H OR V will hold position. But, what about going from one satellite to the next, one having H and the next V – how is that adjusted with the positioner? Is there another motor to turn the reed or is it purely electrical or is there a special small gear train to turn the reed? Very confusing to me! Help!

It appears the LNB and the possible positioner are fed power either over the RG6 or more likely over parallel run flat ribbon cable? The dish will be on their garage that has 110v power. Can we power feed locally? If providing for remote power feed with ribbon, how many conductors for LNB and how many for positioner? Gauge?

Proposing to use a 0.3 Ku World System Dish #9500004 at $229. Includes 85cm dish, (V&H) LNB, and H to H mount. Roof bracket needed, around $40.

The cable, either local or Skyvision, must together provide one or two RG6 (provide a spare?) plus enough ribbon for LNB? and/or positioner? Assume $100+ for this, depending on actual conductors.

The receiver might be a Pansat 500C1, #7015018, at $350, although this pushes the total price beyond the $500 - $700 I told Harry I might be able to hold the price at. This receiver is what I would do, and it includes an auto scan and lock feature and skew. I assume the cheaper receivers, around $100, may have neither of these features? Does the receiver normally power LNB/positioner OR are they separate power input module(s)? in the house?

A peaking kit will run us about $56.

Lightning protection, ground rods, ground wire, surge protection will add another ~$100.

MPEG FTA Satellite transponders/channels. How many generally full time are there? How many generally in English? Real rough guesses?

Comments on everything above?

I hope this will be the start of a fruitful discussion, not only for me but also for many other starters. And that it might also interest others.

I becha the naiveté above is legion!

Sorry so long, but I need some solid points to latch on to.

Thanks,

Dave

 

[photoman76]

For standard C and Ku signals, the frequencies from the lnb to the satellite receiver are generally between 950 and 1450 MHz.

 

[DavidBodner]

Hi photoman 76 -

That's the kind of detail I need.

Thanks much,

Dave

 

[W_Tracy_Parnell]

This will start out as a manually adjusted system; that is, we will aim and watch one satellite for, say, a week and then readjust manually to some other satellite on the arc – until we get a look at them all, and then my in-laws can decide if they want just one satellite OR if we should upgrade them with a positioner.

David,

It looks to me if this is the Skyvision system that it comes with a positioner. You state that you want to decide if you will buy one after using the system so this is an issue. Also, it looks like that may be a quad LNB with that system? If so you should decide if you need that or not. It is normally used to receive FTA and available Dish Network/Canadian programing (which is limited for FTA). While I'm thinking about it, what type of programming are your parents interested in? Make sure they know what is on FTA and what isn't.

Now a digression. My understanding is that linear polarization direction is called “skew” in this stuff. That’s fine because it’s easier to spell ;-)
My assumption is that any particular satellite will have both horizontal and vertical skew transponders/channels, perhaps even circular? So, with manual adjustment, we have to readjust (re-skew?) at the LNB to go from one to the other (or add a piece of equipment to the LNB in the case of circular). That I sort of get. What confuses me is that I hear that by adding the positioner the various skews (H or V) are automatically compensated for. It makes some sense that along the arc the H OR V will hold position. But, what about going from one satellite to the next, one having H and the next V – how is that adjusted with the positioner? Is there another motor to turn the reed or is it purely electrical or is there a special small gear train to turn the reed? Very confusing to me! Help!

You can think of skew as the amount of rotation the LNB needs for a given satellite. If you do set up to manually move the dish you will need to adjust the skew for each satellite. If you use motor, it will adjust skew for you by rotating the dish. That's all you really need to know but maybe an expert will offer a better explanation if you need.

It appears the LNB and the possible positioner are fed power either over the RG6 or more likely over parallel run flat ribbon cable? The dish will be on their garage that has 110v power. Can we power feed locally? If providing for remote power feed with ribbon, how many conductors for LNB and how many for positioner? Gauge?

Just running a KU FTA system and no Cband you will not need a special cable. The power is indeed provided through the RGB cable. The only bad thing about mounting on the garage (roof I assume?) would be wind. But it may not be an issue unless the location is wide open.

Proposing to use a 0.3 Ku World System Dish #9500004 at $229. Includes 85cm dish, (V&H) LNB, and H to H mount. Roof bracket needed, around $40.

The cable, either local or Skyvision, must together provide one or two RG6 (provide a spare?) plus enough ribbon for LNB? and/or positioner? Assume $100+ for this, depending on actual conductors.

The receiver might be a Pansat 500C1, #7015018, at $350, although this pushes the total price beyond the $500 - $700 I told Harry I might be able to hold the price at. This receiver is what I would do, and it includes an auto scan and lock feature and skew. I assume the cheaper receivers, around $100, may have neither of these features? Does the receiver normally power LNB/positioner OR are they separate power input module(s)? in the house?

A peaking kit will run us about $56.

Lightning protection, ground rods, ground wire, surge protection will add another ~$100.

MPEG FTA Satellite transponders/channels. How many generally full time are there? How many generally in English? Real rough guesses?

Comments on everything above?

I hope this will be the start of a fruitful discussion, not only for me but also for many other starters. And that it might also interest others.

I becha the naiveté above is legion!

Sorry so long, but I need some solid points to latch on to.

Thanks,

Dave

The system looks good, but as I mentioned above you may not need a quad LNB (if I am looking at the right system). Invacom is a good name though. The most popular receivers here are the Coolsat 5000, Fortec Lifetime Classic and the Pansat 3500s. Iceberg likes the Pansat 6000 if you need a PVR. You are right to think about grounding and proper installation-that is important.

Good Luck!

 

[W_Tracy_Parnell]

One other thing-make sure you have someone do a site survey or learn how to do one yourself at the very least. This is to make sure you have clear access to the satellites. You can do it yourself if you do some reading and have a compass.

 

[DavidBodner]

Thank you all - It will take a while to digest all that.

Except to say that I have done a preliminary site survey. Having had an actual site survey several years ago at another Syracuse location I am familiar with the solid geometry involved. Unfortunately that survey went missing. So what I did awhile ago was to lay the whole thing out using a large (northern) hemisphere on my garage floor. Everything to scale, including the Clarke Belt. Then, on the garage floor (the equatorial plane) I established the geosynchronous satellites from about 72W to 136W and marked them on the floor way out from the Earth (~23000 miles from center of Earth to scale). Having done that all, azimuths and elevation angles from horizon at observer are directly measurable.

An interesting exercise, probably not as accurate as whatever software does it, but I have a great visual understanding of the solid geometry involved. Just for the heck of it, at Manlius (Syracuse 76W) the values determined were:

Sat 76W > 180 degrees azimuth from true north, 40 degrees elevation.

Sat 90W > 196.5 azimuth, 36 elevation.

Sat 105 > 213.5 32.5.

Sat 120 > 230 28

Sat 135 > 244 15.5.

The "satellites" shown may not be precisely actual locations, just representative points along the arc of the Clarke Belt that can be seen from here.

Harry has a clean shot to about 90% of that 76W to 135W of the arc from the NW corner of his garage.

More later.

thanks,

Dave

 

[W_Tracy_Parnell]

Nice job! Sounds like you have a handle on it as far as what you can see! They can give you exact figures when the time comes based on your zip code. I was just concerned that you had the line of sight but seems you do.

 

[DavidBodner]

Thanks, W. Tracy -

Your suggestions have helped clear up a few things.

We have done a preliminary survey as a "proof of concept" and to move around Harry's yard, house, and garage to find the best location to see the most satellites.

A large tree across the street is our only possible obstruction problem. The NW corner on garage (furthest back-up from the tree) offers the best way to minimize this tree's effect. It has the effect of a glancing obstruction (tree is at about 30 degrees elevation and we might even clear it!) at about Satellite location 125W. Either side is entirely clear from about 70 to 120 and 130+.

Quad LNB I will check. Maybe I need a dual coax to be ready for both H & V feeds in parallel and a dual LNB. i will read up on that. Thank you for the skew explanation; it wasn't quite what I thought. It's the creeping deviation along the arc of either H or V - not going from one to the other. Got it! But sounds like we can only receive one or the other (H or V) with a simple LNB.

The comment about wind is very appropriate. Harry wanted a roof mount for simplicity; I had originally thought of a bracket off the side of the garage with a mast to dish mount. I went with his idea without thinking of wind. Now I will subsume his idea with the simplicity of your comment about wind. After all, I don't want to be responsible for the wind ripping his roof off!!

And I will check out those receivers.

What a great project to keep me busy till spring, and then some.

And it will be interesting to see how closely my derived values from the scale model match a site survey from Skyvision.

BTW, what gave us the initial confidence to look into this is that his neighbors have Dish network dishes and we could see where they're pointing!

If I remember right from helping my wife's brother reposition a Dish dish at a new address for him is that that satellite is around 230 azimuth in the Syracuse area here and about 30 elevation.

More in a few days,

Dave

 

[DavidBodner]

Hi W Tracy -

We're almost doing I/M!

Yes, we will do by zip code. But, from modeling it appears an area even as large as maybe 10 - 20 miles across would get values quite close anyhow.

Dave

 

[Tron]

Skew and polarity are two different things. Normally, on a Ku-only dish with a one-piece LNBF ("LNB" with built-in "F"eedhorn, which the Invacom Quad is), the LNBF switches polarity from horizontal to vertical by in-line voltage from the receiver. The receiver sends 13v over the coax to switch the LNBF to vertical, and 18v to switch it to horizontal.

On any given satellite, you can have both horizontal and vertical transponders. Each transponder can have numerous channels. See www.lyngsat.com/america.html and click on a satellite. Notice that there will be a TP (transponder) freq. number that is either 4 digits or 5 digits. The 4 digit freq. transponders are C-band, which you will not be able to pick up. The ones with 5 digits are Ku transponders. Lyngsat will also list whether the transponder is (H)orizontal or (V)ertical. After scanning a satellite, your receiver will take note of whether a given channel is on a horizontal transponder or a vertical one, and switch the LNBF automatically to the proper polarity (H or V) for the channel you switch to.

Skew is an LNBF alignment process that is necessary when a satellite is east or west of due south from your position. I like to call skew "tilting" your LNBF. This is important if you have a fixed dish, but on a motorized setup, the curve in the motor shaft will "twist" the dish so that the LNB is tilted correctly to pick up the satellite you're aiming at (see PSB's avatar picture, a moving motorized dish).

On a fixed dish, if you're pointed at a satellite where the skew from your location is +20, then you would turn the LNBF 20 degrees counter-clockwise from straight up-and-down to tune the signal correctly. For more on skew, see http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Installation/LNBF-Installation.htm. Here you will find pictures of the LNBF skewed in various ways. http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Installation/Satellite-Heading-Calculator.htm is a calculator for pointing a fixed dish to a given satellite from your location.

Sadoun also has an excellent help page for motor installation at http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Installation/HH-mount-installation.htm when you decide to add the motor.

EDIT: Reading your last message, it seems like you understand the difference between skew and polarity. Check out the past message threads in this forum as well, very good reading. It's a lot to digest, hope this helps!

 

[DavidBodner]

Hi Tron -

Yes, now I understand both how the skew works and how the polarity is switched.

Your message was very detailed. That's my kind of stuff. The part about the curve in the motor shaft is amazing. I never suspected something that subtle was how it might work.

My next step here will be to order an actual site survey to verify our best location. We do know that we have pretty clear shot(s) from various locations on Harry's property, but before we finalize the actual on-site location we need to order the zip coded survey.

Thanks again, everybody, for invaluable training for an old warrior trying to catch up on technology!

Dave

 

[PSB]

You can download this tool,enter your zip code and it will give you all the EXACT angles to the satellites from your location!

http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=50258

 

[digiblur]

Be sure to watch your prices on the system. I just checked Sadoun's site, one of the sponsors here at Satelliteguys. You could get a complete motorized system, receiver, motor, LNB, 36 inch dish upgrade, satellite meter kit(free) shipped to your door for $295.77. All you would need is your pole, coax, etc. FTA doesn't have to be expensive.

If I remember right I spent about $300 for my system. A pole, some concrete, some free coax from the cable guy, few days of pointing the dish, and I was watching FTA. I would definately go with the motor! I highly recommend setting up the dish without the motor first though. This will allow you to figure out the receivers menus, blind scanning, etc before tackling the motoring part.

 

[DavidBodner]

Thanks, Pete and digiblur -

The downloaded software works great on my Mac. And my scale model values measured in my mock-up in the garage a few months ago are in error by 2 - 3 degrees max in both azimuth and elevation.

Software shows differences between Syracuse 13208 and Manlius 13104 (about 20 miles) in the order of 0.4 degrees azimuth and 0.2 degrees elevation.

I will check the Sadoun site. Saving money is apt to make me a hero with my inlaws ;-)

Dave

 

[john green]

David, After reading all this,all I can say is Wow! I love the way you are planning all this out.I notice alot of people come to this and other forums and want it all done for them.I am sure if you read here on a regular basis you will learn alot.I know I did.I finished my motor install a couple weeks back and saved a ton of time by reading and asking questions of all the very smart guys on this forum.I think you will find setting this system up to be not as hard as you might think.Good luck and let us know how you progress.

 

[DavidBodner]

Hi John -

I have an extensive background in tv receiving antennas, some HD, but I'm just starting this satellite stuff. So technical input from you savy guys should get me up to speed pdq.

Hi digiblur -

I checked that system you suggested and I will show it to my inlaws. Skyvision could very well lose a sale. Hey, at 1/2 price, why not!

Dave