Why is the "?"

[hpman247]

So. Many of you know that I feel that Blu-ray is the superior technology, b/c I am a believer that one is allowed to do more, when there is more space to use. Parkinson's Law clearly states "Data expands to fill the space available for storage." I got this term from my sociology textbook and it meant something completely different, but when I searched it online I was surprised to find the exact definition I had been hoping to get.

Will someone please tell me why HDDVD is better than Blu-ray, or vice versa. What are the pros and cons of both technologies. I obviously am more steered toward Blu-ray, so steer me the other way. Unlike many people I have an open mind on all things, so hit me with your best shot, fire away. If you don't mind, I'd like something w/o out spin. Just factual information. Nothing like: In a few months when more Blu-rays begin to use more BD-50 the PQ will be as good as HDDVD is today. That is not what I am looking for. I want facts. I've searched the internet for them, but there is always a bias somewhere. Can you guys give me some facts w/o spin.

That i would greatly appreciate.

 

[hpman247]

And just to throw something out there. If HDDVD and Blu-ray were the same price and provided the same PQ results which would you pick. B/c obviously Blu-ray players will decrease in price dramatically w/i then next year. HDDVD players will as well, but we'll have to wait and see how close the prices are in one year.

 

[mike123abc]

On paper Blu-Ray should wipe the floor with HDDVD. But in reality BR has been so mismanaged that HDDVD is doing well. HDDVD camp came out with a lower cost player under $500 that has a good picture. They used a better compression technique (VC-1 vs MPEG2) and they had double layer disks working out of the gate which gave them more space than a single layer BR.

BR's main problems right now is that the yields on double layer discs have not been good, and just now they are getting ready to release movies at 50GB, 3 movies are scheduled by the end of the year. The rest have had to suffer with lower capacity. The other main problem is that the laser diode used for the player cannot be manufactured, resulting in severe shortages. The PS3 allocation is taking up the entire supply and it has had to have its launch scaled way back because of the shortage. The next problem (which hopefully they have solved) is that BR launched with MPEG2 instead of a more advanced codec. They essentially had a worse compression codec on a smaller disc and the inability to make more players because of the diode shortage.

 

[Ilya]

mike123abc pretty much summed it up! :up
Personally, I don't have any favorites in either camp. And I am prepared to pay for both formats if I have to. Looking at the specs and at the line-up of companies behind each format, just a few months ago I was pretty sure that Blu-ray would be the ultimate winner. I am not so sure any more. The present reality is that HD DVD has delivered on the promise and surpassed my expectations, while Blu-ray has failed to do that.

So, for now, it is HD DVD who gets my money. We'll see what happens next year.

 

[jgantert]

Right now, the best thing HD-DVD has going for it is CONSISTANCY. You can pretty much just go out there and blind buy a movie, and not have to worry if it will suck or not. Yes, BR has gotten better, but still puts out duds (Haunted Mansion comes to mind, as well as The Big Hit).

Plus, notice how Warner and Paramount are putting out a lot of IME movies (Batman Begins, MI3). Neither company has done the same for BR. Personally, its much more convenient using IME (or U-Control or whatever) than manually going thru the extras. It's easy to press right to skip to the next segment of IME. Nice feature, as I didn't watch too many extras on DVDs, but I find myself watching IME more often (Troy and even Dukes Of Hazzard!).

-John

 

[navychop]

Mike123abc said it very well, IMHO.

Yes, BD has better specs and I am a believer in greater capacity having an edge in the market.

Drawbacks:
It's from Sony, a company that IMO is absolutely consumer hostile.
They insist it's "BD" not "BR" - minor, but oh-so-Sony.
Possibly vulnerable to surface scratches. The new coating may work; we will see.
Slow out the gate. Won't matter a year from now.
More expensive. The price difference will narrow, won't matter a year from now.
Will they ship disks with the DVD version on one side, BD on the other- or 2 disks? They should.
On edit: this link says they plan on including the capability to include the standard DVD version to be included on the same side of the disk.

I expect there will likely be a winner, but both may hang on. Either product will likely suffice. But BD offers more growth, and that will likely matter.

With such small sales, this battle will drag on, probably to the benefit of Blue-ray. I would not buy any unit on sale today. They'll get better and cheaper.

 

[teamerickson]

Currently HD DVD is much cheaper to produce. It's basicaly using the same DVD process to manufacture the discs. Changing the line to HD DVD almost cost nothing where it has been estimated that it cost around 2 mil to set up a Blue-ray line. All that savings should result in lower prices for HD DVD discs. If the picture quality looks the same, give me the lower cost product. I'm cheap.

 

[rad]

I originally was a BD supporter, like you the more available storage space the better. We may not need it now but who knows what the future holds (remember, nobody would need more then 640KB of RAM on a PC?).

But when I got my 1080p LCD panel I started to see what was available. Samsung's BD player and available movies were getting bad reviews. And while the Toshiba wasn't getting glowing marks originally a few software upgrades corrected some of the problems. I finally got a Toshiba since the price was under $400, a price point I could live with, and the reviews on the upconvert capabilityes for SD DVD's were glowing. I would really have liked to go with BD but with their players double the price and so so PQ reviews on a bunch of the movies I'm happy with my choice at the moment. If I ended up backing the wrong horse I'll just keep my fingers cross that the Toshiba doesn't die and get a BD player, once the prices have come down to a reasonable level.

 

[T2k]

Let me sum it up...

Mike123abc said it very well, IMHO.

Yes, BD has better specs and I am a believer in greater capacity having an edge in the market.

Drawbacks:
It's from Sony, a company that IMO is absolutely consumer hostile.

Correct.
-1 point

They insist it's "BD" not "BR" - minor, but oh-so-Sony.

Ehh, who cares.

Possibly vulnerable to surface scratches. The new coating may work; we will see.

"May", "if" "after" - future promise, speculation.
Reality is it has only 0.1mm coating where HD-DVD has the same that of DVD, 0.6mm.

-1 points

Slow out the gate. Won't matter a year from now.

"May", "if" "after" - future promise, speculation.

Currently BD is a complete no-show.

-1 points

More expensive. The price difference will narrow, won't matter a year from now.

"May", "if" "after" - future promise, speculation.

No-show and yet much more expensive. Chances are BD players remain reps of a exotic, soon-to-die-out format.

-1 points

Will they ship disks with the DVD version on one side, BD on the other- or 2 disks? They should.

But they don't. That's the reality.

On edit: this link says they plan on including the capability to include the standard DVD version to be included on the same side of the disk.

"May", "if" "after" - future promise, speculation.

Once again you resort to promises - which BD camp *never* been able to keep. Never ever.

-1 points

I expect there will likely be a winner, but both may hang on. Either product will likely suffice. But BD offers more growth, and that will likely matter.

Based on what? On your beliefs? So far you just proved the opposite, that Blu-Ray, as it is now, destined to die.

With such small sales, this battle will drag on, probably to the benefit of Blue-ray. I would not buy any unit on sale today. They'll get better and cheaper.

This is BS, I'm sorry, the usual last line of the BD fans, denying the reality. Everything gets cheaper, it's not the point. The point is HD-DVD costs MUCH less yet gives you superior picture quality - this is today.

So after you decided you want to buy high definition movie player - that's the only question you have to decide - as of today the obvious choice is HD-DVD, period.

 

[navychop]

Yeah, we all know your spleen.

Point is- most buyers will stay on the sidelines, and when prices drop and available movies increase, more will buy. We'll see what is available then.

Relax. No need for so much emotion- it won't affect whether your choice wins or not.

 

[jayn_j]

"Hi Kiddies, this is your Uncle Ralph, here today with the way back machine"
"Hi Uncle Ralph. Where are we going today?"
"This time we are going WAY back to the prehistoric year of 1982, to visit the great Videodisc(k) wars."
"Oh goodie. Are we going to be able to wager on the outcome?"
"Of course, as long as we don't peek ahead"
...

Hi, my name is Jay and I am a laserdisc addict. I bought one of the first players sold on the first day they were offered in the Denver test market. 1978. $787 for a gas laser Magnavox that lasted all of 3 years before dying. Still own several players and over 600 discs.

I remember all the fear and loathing when the RCA/JVC/Sanyo consortium came out with the "needlevision" CED disk.

Full blown war. They even had a third format (THD) threatening to enter the market. The RCA group had a cheaper product, better studio participation, more manufacturers and much better distribution. Within months the Laserdisc (renamed from Discovision) was on the ropes. You couldn't find a player anywhere. Titles trickled down to nothing. I remember going months before finding anything new released. Phillips/Magnavox bailed and we sudenly only had a single manufacturer, Pioneer keeping the dream alive. CED was outselling laser by 50:1.

Then in late 1983, cracks started appearing in RCA's armor. Styluses wore out. Disks only lasted 100 playse before they started skipping. RCA pulled the plug and the whole thing died in weeks. Did that help Laser? Hardly. Titles became even less available. Consumers retreated to the sucky VHS format. It was based on the promise that VHS could record, even though nobody ever did. It took several years and the emergence of e-commerce before laserdisc even became a serious niche player, and nobody ever considered it mainstream, even though the quality improvement was equal or better than the improvement from DVD to a HD disc format.

The point of this whole sermon is that there is absolutely no way to predict how it is all going to come out. Either format can win. It is equally likely that consumers just give a big yawn and stay with proven DVD technology.

What I CAN say is that this war got a lot tougher to win by bringing it out to the consumers. How many littered bodies are out there of these sorts of format wars? DVD-A vs SACD. DAT vs minidisc. DVD +R/-R/+RW/-RW/RAM. etc, etc. The only instance I can think of where a clear winner emerged successfully was VHS over Beta. That was a special case because the concept was filling a need that wasn't being addressed in any other way. That isn't true for this war, and I believe that the most likely outcome is that the two camps will end up killing each other off and we the enthusiasts will be left with nothing that can't be addressed through standard DVD improvements.

 

[navychop]

Yep.

 

[T2k]

Yeah, we all know your spleen.

I don't know who are "you" who know something but we have just seen where your spin is...

Point is- most buyers will stay on the sidelines, and when prices drop and available movies increase, more will buy. We'll see what is available then.

Again, the classic BR state of denial.
HD-DVD, especially after the 2nd generation starts shipping, IS affordable (as A1 will be dumped for ~$200-300) for literally every HDTV owner. Prices will go down, yes but not in the case of BR players which remain 2-3x more expensive.

Relax. No need for so much emotion- it won't affect whether your choice wins or not.

Robert DeNiro voice: "Me? Are you tawkin' to me?"

I couldn't care less about this whole story - I'm waiting for a PC HD-DVD device so I can buy/build etc a multi-player for my living room, to replace my SZ-1350.
The chance that I'll buy a Toshiba or any other player is very close to zero as long as it doesn't play anything else, has no wireless, doesn't upconvert over YPrPb, cannot be region-free etc.
I reject every DRM-feces they are trying to spread in my living room. We're experiencing the biggest corporate takeover in America, in our living rooms, bedrooms, everywhere and it all started with the clearly illegal, un-constitutional DMCA - this was a real black eye for all of us.

 

[vurbano]

And just to throw something out there. If HDDVD and Blu-ray were the same price and provided the same PQ results which would you pick. B/c obviously Blu-ray players will decrease in price dramatically w/i then next year. HDDVD players will as well, but we'll have to wait and see how close the prices are in one year.

What flavor is that Koolaid? BD sales are miniscule compared to HD DVD and the price will not be as low as HD DVD until after BD dies.

 

[hpman247]

I reject every DRM-feces they are trying to spread in my living room. We're experiencing the biggest corporate takeover in America, in our living rooms, bedrooms, everywhere and it all started with the clearly illegal, un-constitutional DMCA - this was a real black eye for all of us.

I cannot believe it. T2k and I actually agree on something. This is like the Raiders winning the Superbowl this year.

 

[hpman247]

BD sales are miniscule compared to HD DVD

Give me some proof before making statements. When I say somethign like that I make clear that "probably", "most likely", etc is in there.