Why all the hoopla about which format?

[tonyp56]

With all do respect to all the fan-boys out there, I have to say, this is crazy.

"HD will win", "BluRay gaining support" .... Really? Come on, both formats are new, and both formats give you the same thing, High Definition movies, programs, etc... BluRay between the two is the newest technology, HD-DVD being more like regular DVD's, but really, they are both a plastic disc--ok, they are several disc sandwiched together--and they both give you the same thing, TV images.

Now, I am not a Sony fan, in anyway, fashion, or form, but that isn't here or now. To begin, why would I want to go pay $499 and above for a DVD player that displays HD of either format? I wouldn't, and honestly, about 90% of everyone else out there won't either, heck, everyone don't have a HD TV yet, let alone willing to spend that much money so they can watch a DVD that is in HD.

Not to mention, which format do you buy? Fanboys from both camps will taught there product until blue in the face, but honestly neither is better than the other, and neither has anything that really out does the other. Blu-Ray has more storage potential, but really, potential is only as good as companies want to take advantage of it. In other words, if no one uses that potential then does Blu-Ray have an advantage? IMO, NO. So more or less it comes down to name, Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. Which sounds like something that everyone knows? HD-DVD, everyone knows DVD, adding HD isn't that confusing. But Blu-Ray? What nut thought that up? It sounds like a fish, I can already hear people saying "Blu-Ray, isn't that what killed Steve Irwin?"

Anyways, both camps are going to lose, because, they've made it too hard for consumers to decide, they've given to many choices that have no clear cut difference. It would have been better to have had only one format, but at the very least companies that make players would be better off making combos, and movie companies would be better off releasing movies in both formats.

Additionally, I know that this isn't the first time something like this was happening. IBM, Sony, and others have been on the cutting edge, bringing or help bringing a new format to the public only to have it smashed. Everyone of them were "new" so different from the norm that many thought that was the reason for the failure. Will Sony fail this time? I don't know, but really didnt' they fail themsevles when they decided to go so far away from the norm? Is Sony the only one behind the Blu-Ray? No, I know that, but they are the biggest one.

HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, which one? Don't know, but remember, both formats do the same thing, so I don't see either winning beyond one thing, the name, which as of right now, HD-DVD has the winning, familiar name.

 

[mike1973]

I agree that the consumers are the ones who are going to suffer the most. The average person has no idea what the difference is between the two formats. I think the best bet is going to be a good priced combo unit but I don't know if that'll ever actually happen. I have HD now and am getting a PS3 but if a combo unit came out in the next year or so I'm sure I would snag one.

 

[JamesJ]

why the hoopla, because everyone wants to be right, and feel like they made the best choice, and they are right and not wrong. Both formats are great, I have seen HD DVD its amazing, I have seen the best and worst of blu ray, and its amazing. They both have pluses and minuses, there probably is no right and wrong, just in peoples mind their are.

 

[tonyp56]

Yeah, but neither camp is going to take off until only one remains.

The thing is, no matter which format you like, you only have a 50/50 chance of being right. Heck, Blu-Ray could be the best thing ever, but if the majority don't agree, then Blu-Ray will go bye bye. There can't be two formats for long, one or the other will have to become the HD DVD format. Kind of like laser disc and VHS tapes, how many even remember ever having a laser disc? I didn't, but my brother was able to rent the players and movies and watch them and I saw them a few times I was probably 10 or 11 years old then. But like laser disc, HD-DVD or Blu-Ray will have to disappear before either format is able to really replace regular DVD's.

And I go back to what I said already, I think the name alone will decide who wins, and HD-DVD is the winner in that regard. Blu-Ray hasn't shown anything special over HD-DVD, so what is left for the majority of people to pick that they like or dislike, the name.

That goes back to Sony et. all companies involved with development of Blu-Ray, they should have done a better job in naming it.

However, regardless, it is too confusing for the majority of consumers to choose between the two formats. All I've read, saw, etc. about either format has been propaganda, tauting things that both formats can actually do equally. Like I said, the only thing Blu-Ray has going for it is the potential for additional space. And again, no one is taking advantage of that, and even if they did, why would the average consumer really care? They don't care about space, if their movie is on the disc, they are happy. Therefore, all the confusion only hurts consumers, and that should hurt sales figures.

Most will be saying, "which format do I buy?" And since they won't be able to see a clear cut winner, they'll ask "which format is going to stay around?" Blu-Ray or HD-DVD (Laserdisc or VHS)

 

[JoeSp]

Name will not decide, numbers will. With 6 BluRay players on the market right now and 5 more coming by March compared to 3 HD-DVD players the consumer will see a perception that BluRay has more support and that is not a perception but a truth. Since only 4 of the 8 major studios support HD-DVD and 7 of the 8 support BluRay by the end of Janurary there will be more BluRay titles out then HD-DVD, once again not a perception but a truth. With Buena Vista (Disney) and Fox only doing BluRay families will pick BluRay. Business is a numbers game and by the end of Janurary no amount of juggling will show HD-DVD having the lions share of perception in the consumers eye, because in truth by that time they won't. The consumer will be looking at the shelf and making their own choices based on choice and availablity which will decisively be in BluRay favor going into Feburary 2007. And lets not talk about the next Spiderman blockbuster (only to be on BluRay) or XMen (Only to be on BluRay) or James Bond (only to be on BluRay).

And with folks turning in their Toshiba HD-DVD player for a 360 HD-DVD drive how is Toshiba going to make any money at all? The question for 2007 shall become not if or when Disney and Fox do HD-DVD but when does Universal see the light and start supporting BluRay. Do they wait for Toshiba to announce a BluRay player this fall? (This is pure speculation about Toshiba based on Toshiba losing money making HD-DVD drives , not making money on the 360's HD-DVD drive, not owning any part of VC-1 compression being used -- belongs to M$ and manufacturers making BluRay standalones making money on their drives. If you can not make any money you are not going to be in business long.)

 

[teamerickson]

And with folks turning in their Toshiba HD-DVD player for a 360 HD-DVD drive how is Toshiba going to make any money at all?

This is actually good for toshiba. You can't just return it to toshiba you have to convience a third party to take or buy it if for reasons other then defective. So for sales numbers this is good for toshiba. It's one more player sold and one more user using HD DVD. I feel your exaggerating just like saying people are buying Blue Ray movies. Figures are better then feelings.

 

[Brewer4]

While these 2 fight it out, I have to agree with folks like Mark Cuban that think plastic discs are not as important as they once were. I've tried Xbox 360 HD movie downloads and it was pretty good. And its getting better with more selections every week. With sats doing Internet downloads and cable doing VOD, its only a matter of time where discs just wont be as important. I dont think they go away anytime soon, but while both camps are fighting for the winning spot, their perception will be less important in a few years. So I dont think we are ever going to see a clear winner. And quite frankly, I dont care. I just want HD movies.

 

[hpman247]

While these 2 fight it out, I have to agree with folks like Mark Cuban that think plastic discs are not as important as they once were. I've tried Xbox 360 HD movie downloads and it was pretty good. And its getting better with more selections every week. With sats doing Internet downloads and cable doing VOD, its only a matter of time where discs just wont be as important. I dont think they go away anytime soon, but while both camps are fighting for the winning spot, their perception will be less important in a few years. So I dont think we are ever going to see a clear winner. And quite frankly, I dont care. I just want HD movies.

i agrees that it WILL come to this eventually, but really, do you want to show off your library on your TV screen. There is nothing like the physical presence of a movie box and having ZERO PRESENCE OF STUPID LICENSING RESTRICTIONS!!!!!!!!!

 

[FlyingJ]

I ususally agree with the HPMan but on this front I differ. Of course I have never ever understood the whole concept of purchasing movies in any format so maybe I am not the one to chime in here. Seems to me that technology will win this battle eventually, maybe 2, 3, heck maybe 5 years down the road but I believe that the virtual library will win out and the disc must eventually become a relic. In the meantime I will enjoy my Blu Ray on the PS3 and hope that everyone that has an HD DVD will do the same.

 

[ronjohn]

Seems to me that technology will win this battle eventually, maybe 2, 3, heck maybe 5 years down the road but I believe that the virtual library will win out and the disc must eventually become a relic.

Where are you going to store the virtual library? I don't think many people are going to store a collection of 30GB movies on their hard drives. Even with DSL it takes 30-45 minutes to download a CDs worth of data. To get a 30GB movie would take many hours, so you can't download every time you want to watch. You could download and then burn to BD or HDDVD, but then you have a disk again.

 

[John Kotches]

Will the download have lossless audio and the same quality video? If not, it's a step down :-(

I haven't even started discussing the logisticial issues where the typical downstream speed is 1 Mbit/second and it's 12Mbits/second (average) and up for a VC-1 encode of HD content (not counting audio).

Are we willing to wait 1 day + (assuming we can nail down the connection at 100% utiliziation) to download a two hour movie?

That's just the end-user side. We haven't started discussing the logistics of the head end.

Sure, as more and more people get higher speeds than that it'll be better (FiOS etc) but it's still quite a long way from being a practical reality and we haven't even discussed mass storage in any meaningful way, although ronjohn started walking down that road

Cheers,

 

[FlyingJ]

All very good points. But I was kind of assuming that by the time the disc becomes a dinosaur downlaoding troubles and speed would have become a non issue. By golly I couldn't have imagined the size of harddrives and the speed of downloading available now just 5 years ago. Of course I am in awe that a freaking picture can even be seen on a big black rectangle so maybe I will pipe down and watch to see what happens!!

 

[John Kotches]

FlyingJ:

I'm selfish... I don't want to take a step back in either audio or video quality for downloads. I fear that we'll go back to DD/DTS tracks instead of lossless compression or uncompressed PCM as the highest quality audio option.

Sadly, my opinion is firmly in the minority category and so I'm doing what I can to spread the gospel of bits in == bits out for audio

Cheers,

 

[hpman247]

All very good points. But I was kind of assuming that by the time the disc becomes a dinosaur downlaoding troubles and speed would have become a non issue. By golly I couldn't have imagined the size of harddrives and the speed of downloading available now just 5 years ago. Of course I am in awe that a freaking picture can even be seen on a big black rectangle so maybe I will pipe down and watch to see what happens!!

5 years ago I was d/l at 3mbps. I now f/l at 6mbps. That's only 3mpbs in 5 years.

 

[hpman247]

FlyingJ:

I'm selfish... I don't want to take a step back in either audio or video quality for downloads. I fear that we'll go back to DD/DTS tracks instead of lossless compression or uncompressed PCM as the highest quality audio option.

Sadly, my opinion is firmly in the minority category and so I'm doing what I can to spread the gospel of bits in == bits out for audio

Cheers,

Uncompressed Audio is GREAT!!!!!! It's bitrate is 4mbps (AUDIO), which is more then Dish Network's Video feed bitrates. And it sounds amazing.

 

[tonyp56]

Still, it begs the question, why get excited about either format?

JoeSp, if you are wrong, and Blu-Ray goes bye, bye, what then? Are you going to throw that useless BD player in the trash (or are you using PS3, in which case you'd probably want to keep so you can play games lol )? Then turn around, and go out and pay $400 and up for a HD-DVD player? Just so you can have High-Definition DVD's? For everyone on the HD-DVD side, the same goes for you, except in reverse, will you go out and buy a Blu-Ray player? After spending that $ on your HD-DVD player?

The truth is, having two formats makes it worse for everyone, not better. What if, neither wins, and both lose, then we will be set back for another 5 years before the next HD format is offered. And downloading movies, well that might sound good, but honestly, don't expect that to happen on a big time basis (enough to even compete with DVD's) for at least another 5-10 years.

And even then, us in the boonies can't get Fios, we are stuck with Dial-up, satellite (which honestly is not much better than dial-up), and in some areas (mine included) wifi. In my case I'm limited to 256Kbps upload and 256Kbps download, for $39.95 per month. When I'm less than a mile from where they offer DSL for $14.95 I think I saw on their advertisment for up to 768Kbps.

So first, 100% coverage for everyone with high-speed internet (at least 1.5Mbps download), then you can start talking about downloading replacing plastic, until then it is wishful thinking of those (perhaps the majority, but not everyone) who can download lots of data quickly or at least fairly quickly. 30GB would take a long time on dial up, lol.

 

[KE4EST]

I agree that the name will, not be the deciding factor.

 

[JoeSp]

FlyingJ:

I'm selfish... I don't want to take a step back in either audio or video quality for downloads. I fear that we'll go back to DD/DTS tracks instead of lossless compression or uncompressed PCM as the highest quality audio option.

Sadly, my opinion is firmly in the minority category and so I'm doing what I can to spread the gospel of bits in == bits out for audio

Cheers,

John, I believe you are only in the minority for now. Just as in 2000 early HDTV adopters were in the minority and everyone was saying why HD now? Then live sporting events started coming out in HD and now everyone is looking at HD. Another two years and digital and HD is all that will be around.

I have said many times before that Lossless Audio tracks are the way of the future. After hearing them, listening to a regular DVD and its lossey audio tracks seems to have alot missing. I agree with you that these new HD Audio tracks are awesome and bring as much to the table in HD Movie viewing as the new BluRay and HD-DVD formats for video. I don't wan't half the experiance and I agree with you that HD movie download right now is delivering just that. I belive that once the new HDMI1.3 receivers come out and folks can go to their local audio/video stores and hear them they will quickly change their minds. Lets hope!

 

[JoeSp]

Still, it begs the question, why get excited about either format?

JoeSp, if you are wrong, and Blu-Ray goes bye, bye, what then? Are you going to throw that useless BD player in the trash (or are you using PS3, in which case you'd probably want to keep so you can play games lol )? Then turn around, and go out and pay $400 and up for a HD-DVD player? Just so you can have High-Definition DVD's? For everyone on the HD-DVD side, the same goes for you, except in reverse, will you go out and buy a Blu-Ray player? After spending that $ on your HD-DVD player?

The truth is, having two formats makes it worse for everyone, not better. What if, neither wins, and both lose, then we will be set back for another 5 years before the next HD format is offered. And downloading movies, well that might sound good, but honestly, don't expect that to happen on a big time basis (enough to even compete with DVD's) for at least another 5-10 years.

And even then, us in the boonies can't get Fios, we are stuck with Dial-up, satellite (which honestly is not much better than dial-up), and in some areas (mine included) wifi. In my case I'm limited to 256Kbps upload and 256Kbps download, for $39.95 per month. When I'm less than a mile from where they offer DSL for $14.95 I think I saw on their advertisment for up to 768Kbps.

So first, 100% coverage for everyone with high-speed internet (at least 1.5Mbps download), then you can start talking about downloading replacing plastic, until then it is wishful thinking of those (perhaps the majority, but not everyone) who can download lots of data quickly or at least fairly quickly. 30GB would take a long time on dial up, lol.

I am using the PS3 and it is an excellant BluRay player -- especially with the new bluetooth remote. Very fast, very quiet and the picture and sound is outstanding. My wife and I watched the Twin Towers with Nicolas Cage last night and I could not believe how great the picture and sound was (and this was a lossey sound codec). She even commented on how nice the picture was (and she usually says nothing).

I have more movies but my daughters were here over Christmas with their husbands and Blazing Angels, Marvels Unlimited Alliance was getting alot of play. I could not remember where I put Resistance:Fall of Man until yesterday. That was a good thing as we might not have got any sleep. Also, downloaded the Motorstorm and GTHD demos -- that sucked up another 10 hours of play. Also, gave my daughter the new Star Wars Legos for the PS2 and that rivaled Blazing Angels for time in the PS3. Only BD movie we watched was IceAge the meltdown and that was excellent too.

I think by March we will have a very clear picture of how BD is going to do this year and I think it is going to surprise alot of people. Especially if the audio/visual magazines keep giving the PS3 real high marks as a BluRay player. Maybe the PS3 will really jumpstart things for the BD camp. I actually believe that the real race will begin in February and March when the new Java applets for BD will be ready for use and the BD camp starts releasing their blockbusters on BluRay. Pirates of the Carribean on BD anyone? How about Spiderman 1 & 2 release on BluRay in time for Spiderman 3? Or how about the new James Bond Flick released in March once again only on BluRay? Or when Warner goes to BluRay on 50gb discs supporting PCM audio and Java? I believe this is when BluRay will start winning the numbers game and start pulling away. Alot of good things are going to be happening for BluRay in the first half of 2007.

 

[tonyp56]

JoeSP,

Even though I'm not a Sony fan, I have to say, I don't care which format wins. I just think it would be better if there wasn't two, I think this could be what kills both. Back when VHS was going up against BetaMax, I think one thing was different, TV was BIG for everyone. With HD, it still isn't big for the majority, I mean why else are they saying the government is going to have to help 40 million people transition to digital OTA, by paying for decoders for their SD TV's? http://www.consumersunion.org/pub/core_telecom_and_utilities/002455.html So in other words, not a big market. The thing is, there won't be that many that jump on, and the ones that do, well look at this forum, one camp against the other. Neither will make up ground and I'm afraid that both will fail.

Anyways, I think it will come down to the product that is the simplest, easiest, and best to use. Not what is the latest technology or highest capacity. Additionally, IMO name recognition. Think about it, how many times does someone win an election solely based on name? Not 100% or anything but it does happen at least some of the time.. So why wouldn't name come into play here? Surely it won't be a huge thing, but it could be what some people base their decision on, i.e. "I've heard of DVD before, I'll go with that". And since there isn't really anything separating these two formats, why not?

I think what should happen, which never will, both camps ought to combine. Blu-Ray taking the best points of HD-DVD and vice-versa, perhaps it could be called Ray-DVD, . Anyways, name aside, this would 1) be the best of both worlds rolled up into one, 2) instead of two camps, there would only be one, means more money, less expense, and more R & D.

Like I said, will never happen, but that would be what would be best for all. This way all Manufactures would make 1 type of player, 1 type of computer drive, 1 type of HD-DVD disc, ..., and all consumers would buy 1 type of HD-DVD disc.

Regardless, with two different competing formats in this market, there is nothing to get excited about either one of them. Neither can really win, no matter how many backers there are, no matter who those backers are, and no matter how new and great the technology is behind the product. One side or both is going to lose, and that means consumers will be spending more money. What money consumers have spent on the losing format(s), will go down the toilet. In PS3's case, they are game consoles first and Blu-Ray player second for the majority that buy them, so that don't mean they will fail or even Sony if Blu-Ray is to lose.

Lets say you acquire 100 Blu-Ray disc, and Blu-Ray ends up losing. Of course, you can say that wasn't a waste, because you can still watch all of those movies. But, if something new comes out that you want in HD on DVD, you'll have to go out and buy a HD-DVD player. No matter who you are, that sucks. In effect, the losing format's player becomes obsolete instantly.