Transmitting Wi-Fi Signal from Nearest Town 7 Miles Away To Get High Speed Internet

[Stargazer]

It is 7 road miles so it is probably less than that if we were talking air miles. There is no high speed internet here. Satellite internet is expensive for the hardware and monthly service and it has lag issues when it is to be used for gaming and telephone VOIP and is a bit slower than cable internet or DSL.

I have been reading up about where people have transmitted themselves a signal from a nearby town that had high speed internet with satellite dishes and mesh dishes. The things that I have seen is where they would transmit from one satellite dish to another satellite dish which then feeds the wire to the computer. Is there a way one can make repeaters this way by using one satellite dish to transmit to another which then would be fed to another satellite dish to transmit to another one again to get around obstacles/trees/terrain? There are a lot of hills and trees here and I am thinking that it may take some repeating of the signal somehow in order for me to get a signal from town. How would a person connect one satellite dish up to another to retransmit the signal? I wouldnt think that it would be as easy as connecting the wires up from the feedhorn of one of the dishes/antennas to the feedhorn of another one. Also, each time you repeat the signal like this, does it weaken the signal and how much? What would I need in order to do this?

 

[SatAdam]

first you need line of sight, the dishes have to point into each other.... then throw lots of time and money into it!

What you have to do is to set a quad element (or similar, I once used a cantenna yagi when I was trying BUD's) at the dish's focal point, aim very carefully, and depending on the size of your dish, you can do different things.

Repeating the signal properly will not degrade the quality, rather improve it, but the equipment needed to repeat this signal is costly. The repeating station will need at least 2 wifi radios and 2 dish setups, bringing your total equipment up to 3-4 complete setups.

Maybe you should check out Satellite Internet from space? I am going to these guys soon: http://thedatabahn.com/

I'm currently playing with a 1m Andrew solid offset dish. Remember the offset when attempting to aim the dish, mounting the dish inverted is recommended.

http://www.trevormarshall.com/biquad.htm

 

[Stargazer]

I see that it says --> Transmit point-to-point without "touching" the internet <--

What does that mean? Also is there a limit to how much you can download per month? I like that it supports VOIP but it seems pricey for the service. The cheapest plan is $100 per month for 1 MB down and 128 KB up.

What do these mean?:

No Transfer Allowance

150-1 Contention Rate (I seen some that said 40-1 Conention Rate)

 

[damaged]

I see that it says --> Transmit point-to-point without "touching" the internet <--

What does that mean? Also is there a limit to how much you can download per month? I like that it supports VOIP but it seems pricey for the service. The cheapest plan is $100 per month for 1 MB down and 128 KB up.

What do these mean?:

No Transfer Allowance

150-1 Contention Rate (I seen some that said 40-1 Conention Rate)

Point to point means that the packet exchange between the 'points' never traverse the internet, think of it as a dedicated LAN, at some point at the end of the 'points', there would be a router/gateway to the internet.

No transfer allowance indicates no bandwidth usage limitations, contention rate is how many other users may be on that link at any given time +1 (you), so 40-1 would mean that there can be up to 39 others sharing it.

 

[Stargazer]

So point to point is not a direct connect to the internet? I am still confused with that.

So the contention rate means how many others are allowed to use my connection if I were to share it with a router (how many unique IP addresses are allowed?) Would this mean that I could have another satellite dish up at another location and have it on the same account using it or is that only to the unique IP addresses? I imagine if I wanted it at a seperate location then I would need to take the modem with me in order to do that.

 

[damaged]

So point to point is not a direct connect to the internet? I am still confused with that.

Yes, and no, it will go point to point until it reaches the final destnation, where your packets could (if setup to do so) be routed to the internet, it is only the packet exchanges from your 'point' to the next 'point', that are not on the internet.

So the contention rate means how many others are allowed to use my connection if I were to share it with a router (how many unique IP addresses are allowed?)

No it is not the amount YOU are allowed to share, it is how many other ptp links the provider figures are sharing the same gateway you'll be on, i.e. final destination (or perhaps internet gateway), you have no control over that.

Basically it works like this, you have a dish at your home, it is point to point (ptp) to a dish 10 miles away (the point-to-point), it then might go to another dish (still not on the internet, still ptp) to another dish 10 miles away from that second 'hop' (now 20 miles from you), to where there may be a router that will then route your packets to the internet (or it may have to use another hop).

Would this mean that I could have another satellite dish up at another location and have it on the same account using it or is that only to the unique IP addresses? I imagine if I wanted it at a seperate location then I would need to take the modem with me in order to do that.

That would be dependant on the provider and the equipment they use, so, you would have to ask them. Optimally you should NOT need any kind of 'modem' at all, you would likely be provided with a bridge instead (this would be provider dependant though, if they do provided end-point internet connection, they could indeed use pppoe(a) for which a router (your 'modem) would be needed).

It should be noted, ptp providers do NOT necessarily provide internet connectivity, ptp is intended to provide a direct connection to your business, etc, however, all that would be needed is a gateway/router at one of the points that would route the ptp to the internet, which may or may not be provided by the provider. YMMV

 

[SatAdam]

your point to point is misleading, and I think you guys misunderstood my point in that.

doing a wifi dish and databahn which uses a Ku 2 way dish are 2 very different things



Databahn is shooting a signal into outer space to a bird. like Direcway (which sucks)

 

[Stargazer]

So basically it is not giving internet access to me at my location where I am at if I do the wi-fi satellite dish (not outer space satellite) but transmitting the packets to the internet back and forth instead? It is just transmitting packets instead of the whole internet? I do not see much difference in having access to packets and access to the internet. I think I see the difference is broadcasting it for anybody to use and broadcasting it for only one person to use unless I transmit my share of the internet/packets to someone else once I receive them from all of those hops of Point 2 Point. Is making a bunch of Point 2 Points really all that expensive or can I just make the hardware from the dishes myself or by the lnbf peice that some people are making for cheap? Could I make as many hops as needed until I reached some sort of high speed internet at someone's home that is able to receive it? Or maybe I could just buy a T1 line to my house (I think I was quoted around $250 per month - does this sound right?) and transmit it to my neighborhood with satellite and wi-fi dishes and split the cost, or would this T1 service split the 1.5 GB of service I have into how many are receiving it from my T1 line? I got a bit to learn about some of these details and what my options would be to get high speed into my neighborhood, for myself or for the community in which is craving it.

 

[damaged]

So basically it is not giving internet access to me at my location where I am at if I do the wi-fi satellite dish (not outer space satellite) but transmitting the packets to the internet back and forth instead? It is just transmitting packets instead of the whole internet?

They _could_ provide you with end-point internet, but PtP does not mean internet is at the end-point, think of PtP as a LAN, you would have to check your provider for the details.

I do not see much difference in having access to packets and access to the internet.

Packets are made up of headers, and payload, it encompasses the data you send and the information routers need to move your data, they are not unique to the internet, the dishes do not care about what the packets contain, be it stuff for the internet, ARP exchanges, they are used on LANs, over the air, through space, etc, a packet is not a packet just because it is on the internet, a packet is a packet no matter what it is on, LAN(like at home when you have more than one computer) or WAN(i.e. internet), any more indepth explaination would be far out of the scope of this forum (I would prefer real-time communication). We are just talking about the media that the packets travel over (dish to dish (ptp) to an endpoint which has a connection/gateway to a T1 (non-ptp) which in turn has access to internet).

I think I see the difference is broadcasting it for anybody to use and broadcasting it for only one person to use unless I transmit my share of the internet/packets to someone else once I receive them from all of those hops of Point 2 Point.

Right.

Is making a bunch of Point 2 Points really all that expensive or can I just make the hardware from the dishes myself or by the lnbf peice that some people are making for cheap?

I could not tell you the costs without doing some research, it would also be subjective based on your needs, and your options. There are also other things, you would have to brush up on your networking, for example (unless you have pros do it all).

Could I make as many hops as needed until I reached some sort of high speed internet at someone's home that is able to receive it? Or maybe I could just buy a T1 line to my house (I think I was quoted around $250 per month - does this sound right?) and transmit it to my neighborhood with satellite and wi-fi dishes and split the cost, or would this T1 service split the 1.5 GB of service I have into how many are receiving it from my T1 line? I got a bit to learn about some of these details and what my options would be to get high speed into my neighborhood, for myself
or for the community in which is craving it.

Yes you can do that, allocation would depend on _your_ router, which would be under your control, while the methods of bandwidth allocation are beyond the scope of this forum, you could, if you wanted, for example, use QoS to determine what kind of traffic gets priority, and you might use scheduling (such as CBQ), to slice the bandwidth amongst neighbors and yourself.

The T1 provider will not impose such allocation, since your neighbors machines will be dealing with your router, as far as the T1 is concerned, only your machine(router/gateway) would be seen and have a real[*] ip, while the neighbors machines would be assigned LAN addresses and use your router as the gateway.

Note, you do NOT have to do any allocation, nor will the T1 provider do any end-point allocation, unless requested to do so, (they do not have to know about you sharing it with neighbors, so you may forget tell them ), it will just work as if you were sharing the T1 in your own home over a LAN, i.e. someone can hog up all your bandwidth.

Sorry, told you it was beyond the scope of this forum.

[*]: An ip that is routable over the internet, i.e. no 192.168. or 10., etc, (LAN) addresses. (aka rfc1918 addresses).

 

[GrumpyGuy]

7 road miles (to the nearest fat pipe, satellite latency is VoIP unfriendly, T1 lines are pricey)...

I have been researching solutions for a very similar situation.

Closing gaps as wide as 125 miles using unmodified 802.11 radios with high gain antennas is possible, if you have a clear line of sight.

http://www.unwiredadventures.com/unwire/2005/12/defcon_wifi_sho.html

... but one tree between your antennas can eat up your entire radio budget. There are also legal issues (which I would rather not get into.)

The line of sight between antennas is the biggest issue with the viability of any unlicensed and legal wireless solution.

So far the best looking solution I have found is made by Avalan (data sheet is attached.) It can burn its way through a couple trees and still have usable signal left coming out the other side.

I'm placing my order next week. If I put it off any longer the leaves will be off the trees before I can do my site survey.

 

[Stargazer]

Line of site is my issue. If it were not for the hills and trees then I could just poing the dish and get the signal from or to anywhere. This line of site issue is a real pain in the but. It would take a tower to get the line of site and it would have to be on a hill in which I do not live on at this location that I am at. Other property that I have is 400 acres and there are a bit of hills on that property. It is 7 miles from me but in the opposite direction of either of the two towns I am in between. There is a place up there where I can see a tower but it may not have the wireless internet on it. I would think that there would at least be hope to get something on that property if I can get my signal routed from up on that hill down to where the house I have on that property is at. I was starting to wonder if it would even be possible to route myself a signal from that property 7 miles away to where I am at now off of that hill. My guess is no that there are probably too many hills and trees in between and some are probably higher than the one I have and that it would probably have to be on a tower after some reading I done about the curve of the earth and so forth. I hate these hills.

 

[Stargazer]

I went up on the hill behind my house today and surprisingly I found two sets of lights (one above the other) of lights flashing from a tower in the distance. I know the people that have this land behind my house. There is also a tower around 125 feet high with just some antenna's on it to pickup the local channels on the lower end of the tower and at the top was one little antenna. This tower on the hill behind my house is the same type that people use at their house to put their outdoor antenna on or their dusk and dawn light on. Nothing at the tip top of the tower. There were also three satellite dishes there and a little building. This is where the cable company gives us our 25 channels of cable tv for the area. I can see some places on the ground where one could transmit a signal down there and then I could distribute the signal. Where the signal would be transmitted to would be one road mile from my house. This is on the same hill that is beside my house. Would I be able to go from house to house until I get the signal on a p2p network to go that far? I should be able to just mount a dish and and transmit the signal to the ground right? Or maybe just repeat it to the ground or something. Is there a way to bounce a signal from a satellite dish to reflect it down to the ground like a mirror bounces light?

I know of another neighbor that lives across the road from me on a hill and I am going to see if I can see that same tower from his place. They are wanting to put a cell phone tower there next year. I do not know if that hill is quite as tall though as the one that I was on where I saw the cable satellite dishes and the tower. I should be able to get a p2p from his place but I couldn't from where I could see that tower at on the the hill beside of me.

 

[damaged]

Would I be able to go from house to house until I get the signal on a p2p network to go that far?

First, it is ptp not p2p, p2p is peer to peer, a totally different thing. (sorry )

Now, I have been doing some reasearch and these setups can be fairly complex, to fairly doable, some use light (expensive/complex), some use packet radio (requires FCC licensing, or even be disallowed), however, some of other methods such as housing a wireless AP every so often with a satenna to gain distance may be more feasable for you.

I should be able to just mount a dish and and transmit the signal to the ground right? Or maybe just repeat it to the ground or something. Is there a way to bounce a signal from a satellite dish to reflect it down to the ground like a mirror bounces light?

As stated above, it is a bit more complex, each 'client' would have a dish aimed at the 'server' (whoever had the DSL or T1 land link), and you could use 2 dishes on clients where you need to relay to another client farther out. If you have communities, you could setup a ptp right to the genral area of the community, then distribute it with WAPs.

It should be noted, you can't just throw up a couple D* dishes and have at it, you are essentially going to be throwing together a mini-isp.

 

[Stargazer]

That is what I meant, p2p (peer to peer) if I can get the signal directly from the tower since I can see its lights from the ground up on the hill and then transmit that signal to the ground then go peer to peer from there to get to my house a mile away, would that then be possible that far away? The service is already on that tower and they said that if I could get 10-15 people in my area to get the service then they could get a repeater up. They should be able to just use it as a repeater then go peer to peer at that point once the signal is back on the ground again I would think. I would just have to get enough people to sign up for the service to get it to my house if I went that route. Either that or there is another large hill in which should see that tower as well as me and then should be able to get that transmission straight to me and the area that way. The people that have the service on the tower already has a T1 or T3 connection, I cannot think of which he said that he had. He said that it took 10-15 people on the network to break even on the hardware. I just have to figure out if I would be better off offering my own service instead of trying to get the signal off of the other service provider's tower.

 

[mastermesh]

There are some communities that set up entire cities as wifi hotspots... Think I read a good portion of nyc and denver are like that somewhere. It really is all about where the wifi routers are placed and who controls them. I tried wifi in an apartment complex several years ago... 802.11b was the newest thing around then... we barely could get a signal from his router connected to cable internet to my apartment 2 doors down. We finally gave up and returned the 802.11b stuff to staples after a day or two... line of sight is a big deal.

 

[mike123abc]

Before I had cable and DSL in my area I used a wifi distant setup. I have a 2 story house and the antenna had to be up another 10-15 feet above it to clear the trees. It was a 2.5 foot long or so antenna that pointed at their tower about 3 miles away. They would work LOS 10 miles. They had 2 towers 5 miles apart, I could not see the closer tower about 2 miles away, so pointed at the 3 mile one.

I had 2mbit both directions, it connected at 11mbit/sec but was throttled down to 2 mbit. The main reason I switched was that it was $90/month. Cable was $55 now DSL is $27 (and much faster now).

 

[bajadudes]

If you wanted to experiment I have a butt load of new .75 meter parabolic antennas with feed arms. I know that some folks adapt the end of the arm with a cantenna and refelect the signal quite a ways. As I recall from googling a few months back the record is some 75 miles Line of sight out west somewhere with a standard 250 or 500 milliwatt sig I forget

I sell them for $15 bucks each just to get rid of them but if you wanted to experiment and share your results I would give them to you for free along with mounting hardware as long as you pick up the shipping. I have always wanted to try and tinker with the concept but just never had the time. Same offer goes to anyone else out there that wants to experiment. Just report back what you did and how you did it.

It's on my specials page http://www.orbitalenterprises.net/specials.html if you want it put it in the cart and take it all the way to the point where it gives you a shipping quote then cancel the order and send me an e-mail. I will send it for just the shipping. Or if you have a shipping account already with a major shipper I can just charge it to your shipping account

 

[Stargazer]

I have even talked to someone over at the retailer forums about setting up my own wi-fi service through them and they have not even contacted me back. They were saying that it would probably be at least $15,000 to start it up. I would be paying for all upfront costs to getting it started then they get to keep half the profits for doing the billing and maintenance on the system. Why should I have to pay half when I paid all the upfront costs when the service and billing costs will just come out of my half of the profits? I asked why they couldnt pay half the costs upfront and they said if they had to do that then they would bring someone in here instead and keep all the money. With them saying that I wonder why it would not be the same for me, that I might as well keep all the money if I have to pay out upfront like that. I also asked about the risk involved since they have special software to see what coverage area there is and the best place to locate tower. He also said he got discounts on the hardware and got special deals and so forth. I was thinking that maybe the cheaper hardware and better deals would be a good trade off with having to pay for everything up front but something tells me its a deal in which they have no risk and the risk is all on me and they stand to make just as much as I do with me paying all the money up front. I asked what their failure rate was in that there are 1 in x people that do not make a profit/lose money. I could not get an answer to that question so that was enough for me to think twice about it. I was never called back.

Surely there are cheaper ways of getting it and there should be a way to transmit a signal from town to get it here even if it is through microwave. The T1 service is a bit expensive especially considering its 1.5 MB which would have to be split with many people just to break even.

 

[bajadudes]

check out http://www.nomadisp.com, you have to supply the connection but they seem reasonable on equipment costs and profit sharing, they design your webpage for you and handle all customer tec support issues and credit card billing.

or start tinkering on your own.

 

[berck]

We've done 802.11 for work for a few miles. Line of sight is the key along with high gain directional antennas. A new wireless standard is emerging called 802.16e. This new standard had ranges of 20 to 70 miles depending on the bit rate. You may look into this new hardware for your use