There seems to be some confusion regarding the recent court filings...

[Skyhi]

I've been glancing at the 100's of posts regarding the Voom and Tivo lawsuits. Some (not all) of the comments on these threads indicate a severe lack of understanding about what a(n) (ammended) complaint is. I will try to explain....

A legal complaint is simply a list of facts that a plaintiff hopes to prove at trial. NOTHING MORE. The facts are mere allegations that are meaningless until proved with evidence. As somebody who has read literally 1000s of complaints, I can assure you that many of the "facts" stated within them are pure BS.

VOOMs complaint against E*, for example, looks extremely damning for E*. However, this is how all complaints appear.....they are intentionally drafted that way. Until VOOM can offer concrete evidence to back the "facts" stated in their complaint, the "facts" are utterly meaningless and should not be given credence.

For a better understanding of the facts in any given case, it is helpful to read the various motions and affidavits filed by BOTH sides. Hoping to gain any knowledge other than the "nature of the dispute" by reading a complaint is a complete exercise in futility.

 

[Gremraf]

Well said

 

[Tyralak]

I've been glancing at the 100's of posts regarding the Voom and Tivo lawsuits. Some (not all) of the comments on these threads indicate a severe lack of understanding about what a(n) (ammended) complaint is. I will try to explain....

A legal complaint is simply a list of facts that a plaintiff hopes to prove at trial. NOTHING MORE. The facts are mere allegations that are meaningless until proved with evidence. As somebody who has read literally 1000s of complaints, I can assure you that many of the "facts" stated within them are pure BS.

VOOMs complaint against E*, for example, looks extremely damning for E*. However, this is how all complaints appear.....they are intentionally drafted that way. Until VOOM can offer concrete evidence to back the "facts" stated in their complaint, the "facts" are utterly meaningless and should not be given credence.

For a better understanding of the facts in any given case, it is helpful to read the various motions and affidavits filed by BOTH sides. Hoping to gain any knowledge other than the "nature of the dispute" by reading a complaint is a complete exercise in futility.

Don't tell that to Tivo Wanking Troll (TWT), you might just blow his mind.

 

[Skyhi]

I just can't believe the arguments that are taking place over a COMPLAINT. Here is an overly simple, ridiculous example in a criminal context to illustrate my point to illustrate my point:

Joe is accused of murder. The prosecutor's complaint states:

1. Joe is a resident of Ohio

2. Jill is a resident of Ohio

3. On 6/6/08, Joe and Jill attended a party at 123 main street.

4. Joe consumed 18 shots of Vodka at the Party.

5. At around 2am, Joe and Jill engaged in a heated argument.

6. During the argument, Jill physically struck Joe with a beer bottle.

7. In response, Joe shot Jill with a gun.

8. Jill died.


Joe is charged with murder. If one JUST reads the complaint (I know, its not called a complaint in criminal cases), then it looks pretty bleak for Joe....

...at trial it is revealed that Joe was stationed off-shore in the military on the night of the murder, but one never would have known that by just reading the complaint.

 

[webbydude]

So it was Jack who shot Jill?

 

[Tyralak]

So it was Jack who shot Jill?

Yep. On the hill. There was an argument over a pail of water. The argument got heated. Jill pushed Jack down the hill, where he broke his crown. Jack then pulled out his .45 and shot Jill, who came tumbling after.

 

[Peter Parker]

But people believe what they want to believe. That is really what is going on.

 

[riffjim4069]

For a better understanding of the facts in any given case, it is helpful to read the various motions and affidavits filed by BOTH sides. Hoping to gain any knowledge other than the "nature of the dispute" by reading a complaint is a complete exercise in futility.

I fully agree! However, EchoStar's Counter Claim (or any other documents in reply to VOOM's motion for that matter) are not on file, or at least publically accessible. Also, it is fair for people to consider the credibility of the accused. In this particular case, EchoStar has a history of questionable behavior...especially when dealing with programmers. For example: if you were to accuse The Pope of murder, you would have a difficult time convinding anyone your alogation had merit due to the well-established moral conduct of the pontif. However, if you were to accuse Scott Peterson of murdering any formal love interest...well, people are going to more apt to believe you based on Mr. Peterson's murderous past.

Dish Network may have very well been within their legal rights to terminate the agreement, but their past business dealing would suggest otherwise. Finally, although E* may have been well within their rights to terminate the affiliation agreeement, there is no question this company did not treat their customer fairly in the VOOM matter, and I am convinced they did not act in good-faith in trying to resolve the matter with VOOM based on the facts and their past history.

Anyway, I have asked that someone post E*'s reply to VOOM's Complaint & Summons, but so far nothing...and this is a E* friendly website Perhaps you can help?

http://www.satelliteguys.us/1392182-post143.html

 

[Fitzie]

Riffjim4069 commented: "there is no question this company did not treat their customer fairly in the VOOM matter...."

Why not? It is clear VOOM did not adhere to the clear wording of the agreement with Dish Network. Despite repeated efforts on Dish's part to reach an accommodation, VOOM was adamant in maintaining their position. And this seems clear just from the amended complaint by VOOM. My reading is that VOOM's position is that "fair" is not the name of the game. My assessment is that VOOM is the one-legged man in a butt kicking contest, and they're kicking the best they can, but the ground they are standing on is not that steady.

Fitzie

 

[DishSubLA]

I've been glancing at the 100's of posts regarding the Voom and Tivo lawsuits. Some (not all) of the comments on these threads indicate a severe lack of understanding about what a(n) (ammended) complaint is. I will try to explain....

A legal complaint is simply a list of facts that a plaintiff hopes to prove at trial. NOTHING MORE. The facts are mere allegations that are meaningless until proved with evidence. As somebody who has read literally 1000s of complaints, I can assure you that many of the "facts" stated within them are pure BS.

VOOMs complaint against E*, for example, looks extremely damning for E*. However, this is how all complaints appear.....they are intentionally drafted that way. Until VOOM can offer concrete evidence to back the "facts" stated in their complaint, the "facts" are utterly meaningless and should not be given credence.

For a better understanding of the facts in any given case, it is helpful to read the various motions and affidavits filed by BOTH sides. Hoping to gain any knowledge other than the "nature of the dispute" by reading a complaint is a complete exercise in futility.

Well Stated! And these damning or apocalyptic complaints are often designed as a form of leverage. These dueling complaints are really designed to get the other party back to the bargaining table. Dish doesn't really want a court victory many years down the road, they want VOOM to give them a better deal or just go away, and Voom wants to be put back on Dish Network. Companies always prefer to work out an agreement than spend more money on lawyers (no offense intended) and have matters hung-up for years in the court system. Of course, failing this, each company will continue this matter in the courts for however long it may take.

 

[Scorpion.sting]

Yep. On the hill. There was an argument over a pail of water. The argument got heated. Jill pushed Jack down the hill, where he broke his crown. Jack then pulled out his .45 and shot Jill, who came tumbling after.

Now that was funny

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

Anyway, I have asked that someone post E*'s reply to VOOM's Complaint & Summons, but so far nothing...and this is a E* friendly website Perhaps you can help?

It appears Dish has not replied as of yet, normally it takes a week or so for the lawyers to reply to those type of thing, and here has Dish has 100 points to address.

I am sure that once Dish replies that it will be made available on the courts website.

I am looking forward to seeing their response.

 

[Peter Parker]

It appears Dish has not replied as of yet, normally it takes a week or so for the lawyers to reply to those type of thing, and here has Dish has 100 points to address.

I am sure that once Dish replies that it will be made available on the courts website.

I am looking forward to seeing their response.

He is referring (I believe) to an echostar response to the ORIGINAL complaint. He thinks it odd that the judge lwithout one or that if there is one it is not accessible in the same manner as the original complaint.

I don't agree with Jim on much of anything in all thsi but it would be interesting to read the Echostar response.

But I also agree with the point of thsi thread----which is that neither filing is likely to tell us the whole story.

 

[Skyhi]

It appears Dish has not replied as of yet, normally it takes a week or so for the lawyers to reply to those type of thing, and here has Dish has 100 points to address.

I am sure that once Dish replies that it will be made available on the courts website.

I am looking forward to seeing their response.

In federal court, a defendant has 28 days (i believe - - - not sure about new york state) to respond to a complaint.

E*'s response, however, will be utterly meaningless - - - you will not learn any information. A typical answer to a complaint looks like this:

1. Defendant admits it is a corporation with its principle place of business in Colorado.

2. Defendant denies allegations made in paragraph 2 of the complaint.

3. Defendant denies allegations made in paragraph 3 of the complaint.

.....and so one. In an answer, a defendant merely admits or denies the allegations in the complaint....paragraph by paragraph. They will give no reasons for their denials. In addition, the answer will contain a laundry list of affirmitive defenses that may or may not be valid, but they will be stated because many of them are permanetly waived if they are not brought up in the answer.


E* may make a counterclaim against VOOM when it files its answer. The counterclaim, however, is nothing more than another complaint meaning that it is full of facts that the counter-claimant *hopes to prove* at trial.


The real information is contained in affidavits, motions, and testimony. In federal court, this is all publicly accessible at the courthouse or online (however I believe there is a charge of $.05/page if it is retrieved online)

 

[Skyhi]

I fully agree! However, EchoStar's Counter Claim (or any other documents in reply to VOOM's motion for that matter) are not on file, or at least publically accessible. Also, it is fair for people to consider the credibility of the accused. In this particular case, EchoStar has a history of questionable behavior...especially when dealing with programmers. For example: if you were to accuse The Pope of murder, you would have a difficult time convinding anyone your alogation had merit due to the well-established moral conduct of the pontif. However, if you were to accuse Scott Peterson of murdering any formal love interest...well, people are going to more apt to believe you based on Mr. Peterson's murderous past.

Dish Network may have very well been within their legal rights to terminate the agreement, but their past business dealing would suggest otherwise. Finally, although E* may have been well within their rights to terminate the affiliation agreeement, there is no question this company did not treat their customer fairly in the VOOM matter, and I am convinced they did not act in good-faith in trying to resolve the matter with VOOM based on the facts and their past history.

Anyway, I have asked that someone post E*'s reply to VOOM's Complaint & Summons, but so far nothing...and this is a E* friendly website Perhaps you can help?

http://www.satelliteguys.us/1392182-post143.html

It's fine if people want to express an opinion on the E*/Voom case based on E*s past behavior. My only point is that some people are very misguided if they're forming an opinion on the case based on the allegations made in the complaint.

As I said in the previous post, E*'s answer to the complaint will only have a long numbered list stating "Dfd admits/denies to allegations in paragraph..."

 

[Peter Parker]

Again all he wants to see is how Echostar responded to the first filing. they obviously did because the ruling we see refers to the echostar arguments. I my or may not agree with jim on how he interprets it but I too would love to see the full record of what occurred to get us to the initial ruling on the temporary injunction.

I don't think thst Jim was referring to arespomse to the amended complaint. Tah too would be interesting but I think that we all agree that it likely has nt been filed yt.

 

[Skyhi]

Again all he wants to see is how Echostar responded to the first filing. they obviously did because the ruling we see refers to the echostar arguments. I my or may not agree with jim on how he interprets it but I too would love to see the full record of what occurred to get us to the initial ruling on the temporary injunction.

I don't think thst Jim was referring to arespomse to the amended complaint. Tah too would be interesting but I think that we all agree that it likely has nt been filed yt.

Ok, I understand. I'm not sure why E*'s answer and counterclaim arn't posted electronically on the docket yet....very weird. Until its posted, the only way to read it would be to physically look at the case file in the courthouse. Like I said before, though, this document is nothing more than E*'s view of the dispute when looked at under rose colored glasses.

The documents to wait for to get a true feeling of the case will be Vooms motion for summary judgment, E*'s MSJ (and/or reply to Vooms MSJ), and most importantly, the judges ruling on the MSJ's (hopefully he/she will give a written opinion). While MSJ's are optional filings, I'd expect both sides to file one within the next 12 months assuming the case isn;t settled out of court.