SWiM needs sporadic reset but only affects 8 out of 24 receivers

[MixedMarket]

Spent a lot of time trying different things to fix this issue so now I'm here. I will try to cover all of the things I did since they will be suggested. It's 20 H-25 and 4 H-24 receivers supplied by three 8-way splitters. About once a week, the same 8 H-25 receivers that are fed from the same splitter would go offline with a 771 or 775 error. It didn't seem to be tied to power failures or rain but not 100% sure since I'm not always there. The only way to fix it was to pull the plug on the two power inserters. I found a SWiM 8 being fed from the Legacy Ports of a SWiM 16. The TVs that would go offline were on the SWiM 8 and I read that the Legacy Ports are not the best way to feed another SWiM. So I got an E-2 adapter and joined two SWiM 16's together. The issue continued so I replaced the splitter. The issue continued so I tried moving the coax that feeds the splitter to the other SWiM. The issue continued so I tried swapping the power inserters between the SWiMs. The issue continues so I put a smart outlet at the two power inserters so I can reset things without having to be there.

I understand power failures and rain can throw things offline but why is it always the same 8 receivers and the other 16 don't have the same issue? The smart outlet is a temporary fix but not a permanent one so any other things to try are appreciated. Thank you!

 

[slice1900]

Makes me think there is some sort of interference limited to those 8 receivers or the coax supplying them. First thing I'd do is swap those 8 H25s for 8 H25s elsewhere in the setup. See if the problem moves - if so then there is something hinky with one of the H25s and you can move 4 then 2 etc. to isolate it by process of elimination. If the problem does not move, I'd replace the connectors on both ends of all 8 coaxes to see if that helps, if not then there is something affecting one of them along the path - damage to the insulation and it is close to a powerful RF source like a poorly shielded motor.

 

[MixedMarket]

Makes me think there is some sort of interference limited to those 8 receivers or the coax supplying them. First thing I'd do is swap those 8 H25s for 8 H25s elsewhere in the setup. See if the problem moves - if so then there is something hinky with one of the H25s and you can move 4 then 2 etc. to isolate it by process of elimination. If the problem does not move, I'd replace the connectors on both ends of all 8 coaxes to see if that helps, if not then there is something affecting one of them along the path - damage to the insulation and it is close to a powerful RF source like a poorly shielded motor.

Thank you for the reply. I thought about replacing connectors and swapping receivers around but was hoping for a simple solution... I was thinking that a bad receiver in the 8 could be sending something back into the coax to throw them off. I ran all of the self-tests including the ones from the Service Menu and they all pass.

 

[raoul5788]

to Satelliteguys MixedMarket!

 

[Inclined Orbit]

I'm not a SWM expert but I've designed and built a lot of very large SWM distribution systems using SWM 8 and SWM 32 modules. I also think its best to find the root cause of the problem before shotgunning parts or making any repairs.

It looks like you have provisions to feed 24 tuners with 3 X 8-way splitters, am I correct? If so you have 20 receivers and 4 DVRs needing a total of 28 feeds. If that's right then at some point you run out of feeds and something has to give, like angry receivers that can't find a feed.

If you have 28 or more feeds available then my next question would be what is the frequency rating of your splitters? Are they DTV approved? The receiver communicates with the SWM LNB or SWM module around 2.3MHz, so if your splitters are not rated down to that frequency things may work erratically. What power supplies are you using for all the SWM modules? Are they supplying the correct voltage under load? Do you have any amplifiers in the system, especially when using the E2 adapter?

I always started with a legacy LNB with four outputs to a polarity locker then split to the inputs of the individual SWM modules. You can feed hundreds or thousands of receivers this way. On larger systems with more than maybe two SWM modules an amplifier is used before the splitters that feed the SWM modules. On really big systems I started with a pair of 1.2M Alaska/Hawaii dishes that have about 5dB more gain than a Slimline and that goes a long way in signal quality throughout the system and gives a little more rain fade headroom.

 

[MixedMarket]

I'm not a SWM expert but I've designed and built a lot of very large SWM distribution systems using SWM 8 and SWM 32 modules. I also think its best to find the root cause of the problem before shotgunning parts or making any repairs.

It looks like you have provisions to feed 24 tuners, am I correct? If so you have 20 receivers and 4 DVRs needing a total of 28 feeds. If that's right then at some point you run out of feeds and something has to give, like angry receivers that can't find a feed.

If you have 28 or more feeds available then my next question would be what is the frequency rating of your splitters? Are they DTV approved? The receiver communicates with the SWM LNB or SWM module around 2.3MHz, so if your splitters are not rated down to that frequency things may work erratically. What power supplies are you using for all the SWM modules? Are they supplying the correct voltage under load? Do you have any amplifiers in the system, especially when using the E2 adapter?

I always started with a legacy LNB with four outputs to a polarity locker then split to the inputs of the individual SWM modules. You can feed hundreds or thousands of receivers this way. On larger systems with more than maybe two SWM modules an amplifier is used before the splitters that feed the SWM modules. On really big systems I started with a pair of 1.2M Alaska/Hawaii dishes that have about 5dB more gain than a Slimline and that goes a long way in signal quality throughout the system and gives a little more rain fade headroom.

Thank you for the reply!
There are two SWiM 16's joined together with the E-2 that provide three coax lines that have their own splitters. These are DTV green-label splitters including the new spiltter that I tried which didn't help.
There are no amplifiers and the SWiM 16's are being powered by DTV 29v power inserters.
Since this is only happening on the same 8 receivers and I have tried moving them to the other SWiM 16, I'm guessing it's an issue within these 8 and not something at the dish or LNB.
Open to any ideas and again, thank you!

 

[Inclined Orbit]

Is there a lot of cable between the LNB and SWM area? When everything is working are the signal levels at each receiver in a good range?

At this point and without being able to see the setup, any other ideas would be guessing. I'll make the same suggestion from another recent post. Buy, borrow or steal a Directv AIM installation meter or equivalent so you can do some measurements to pinpoint the problem. This will not only give you signal quality readings throughout the system, it will let you know if the communications to the SWM or LNB is ok.

Thank you for the reply!
There are two SWiM 16's joined together with the E-2 that provide three coax lines that have their own splitters. These are DTV green-label splitters including the new spiltter that I tried which didn't help.
There are no amplifiers and the SWiM 16's are being powered by DTV 29v power inserters.
Since this is only happening on the same 8 receivers and I have tried moving them to the other SWiM 16, I'm guessing it's an issue within these 8 and not something at the dish or LNB.
Open to any ideas and again, thank you!

 

[Inclined Orbit]

Looking at your reply again, I believe you have three 8-way splitters for a total of 24 ports. Each of the two outputs of the SWM 16 will handle up to 8 tuners. A DVR has two tuners, so you can only connect four DVRs to each 8-way splitter and then your out of SWM channels. Or if you have a combination of receivers and DVRs connected to an 8-way splitter, each DVR has two tuners even though its only got one cable connection.

I think a potential problem is you have run out of SWM channels on one or more 8-ways and may need to add another 8-way to balance things out. Well, what you really need is a 4-way on your last SWM output and dedicate all your DVRs to that so you can't connect anything else to it. Does the troublesome 8-way have DVRs on it while the others do not?

Thank you for the reply!
There are two SWiM 16's joined together with the E-2 that provide three coax lines that have their own splitters. These are DTV green-label splitters including the new spiltter that I tried which didn't help.
There are no amplifiers and the SWiM 16's are being powered by DTV 29v power inserters.
Since this is only happening on the same 8 receivers and I have tried moving them to the other SWiM 16, I'm guessing it's an issue within these 8 and not something at the dish or LNB.
Open to any ideas and again, thank you!

 

[MixedMarket]

Is there a lot of cable between the LNB and SWM area? When everything is working are the signal levels at each receiver in a good range?

At this point and without being able to see the setup, any other ideas would be guessing. I'll make the same suggestion from another recent post. Buy, borrow or steal a Directv AIM installation meter or equivalent so you can do some measurements to pinpoint the problem. This will not only give you signal quality readings throughout the system, it will let you know if the communications to the SWM or LNB is ok.

The SWiMs and the LNB are about 30 feet away from each other.
When the receivers are working, the signal strength is high 90s or 100.
I have seen different dish aiming meters but since the issue only affects 8 out of the 24 TVs I didn't think it was a dish/LNB/coax to the SWiMs issue. If you think it's worth it I'll get one. Any advice on one that is good and reasonably priced?
Thank you for the reply!

 

[MixedMarket]

Looking at your reply again, I believe you have three 8-way splitters for a total of 24 ports. Each output of the SWM will handle up to 8 tuners. A DVR has two tuners, so you can only connect four DVRs to each 8-way splitter and then your out of SWM channels. Or if you have a combination of receivers and DVRs connected to an 8-way splitter, each DVR has two tuners even though its only got one cable connection. I think a potential problem is you have run out of tuner ports and may need to add another 8-way to balance things out. Does the troublesome 8-way have DVRs on it while the others do not?

I know the H-25s are not DVRs and the other units, which are not part of the ones 8 that act-up, I think are H-24s but they are not being used for any DVR stuff. Since they are fine I haven't done much poking around with them so I apologize if I don't have the correct model numbers.

 

[Inclined Orbit]

There is only one meter I know of that will troubleshoot your system properly and that's the actual Directv designed Advanced Installation Meter or AIM. They are not cheap but if you do your own installs and troubleshooting it can pay for itself. Otherwise I might suggest bribing a DTV installer to come over and give your system a check out. Years ago you could call and complain to DTV that your reception is crap and they would send out an installer who would usually fix it for free. Not sure how that works these days.

The SWiMs and the LNB are about 30 feet away from each other.
When the receivers are working, the signal strength is high 90s or 100.
I have seen different dish aiming meters but since the issue only affects 8 out of the 24 TVs I didn't think it was a dish/LNB/coax to the SWiMs issue. If you think it's worth it I'll get one. Any advice on one that is good and reasonably priced?
Thank you for the reply!

 

[MixedMarket]

There is only one meter I know of that will troubleshoot your system properly and that's the actual Directv designed Advanced Installation Meter or AIM. They are not cheap but if you do your own installs and troubleshooting it can pay for itself. Otherwise I might suggest bribing a DTV installer to come over and give your system a check out. Years ago you could call and complain to DTV that your reception is crap and they would send out an installer who would usually fix it for free. Not sure how that works these days.

I will look into one of those meters...
Forgot to mention in my original posting:
-Had a DTV "tech" come-out and he said everything was fine. He didn't even mention about the loss with using the Legacy ports or suggest any of the things I have tried.
-I forced firmware updates on all 24 receivers and the 20 H-25's did get new firmware, which didn't help.

Thank you for your reply!

 

[Claude Greiner]

I would swap the (2) SWM16 for a DSWM 30. Re-balance the splitters so your running 12 and 12 off each port.

It gets rid of the switch daisy chain issue and any other switch related issues.

Although resetting a power inserter should not be a common thing it does happen.

Been on many many service calls where resetting the power inserter fixed it.

 

[MixedMarket]

I would swap the (2) SWM16 for a DSWM 30. Re-balance the splitters so your running 12 and 12 off each port.

It gets rid of the switch daisy chain issue and any other switch related issues.

Although resetting a power inserter should not be a common thing it does happen.

Been on many many service calls where resetting the power inserter fixed it.

That's on my list, to replace the two SWiM 16's with a single SWiM.
The smart outlet makes it easy to reset the SWiMs from anywhere but I hope I can fix this as it's a pain. Normally it's about once a week but yesterday I had to do it twice which is unusual.

 

[slice1900]

Thank you for the reply. I thought about replacing connectors and swapping receivers around but was hoping for a simple solution... I was thinking that a bad receiver in the 8 could be sending something back into the coax to throw them off. I ran all of the self-tests including the ones from the Service Menu and they all pass.

Probably not going to find a simple solution, but if you want to truly solve the problem I wouldn't make any other changes (even stuff like replacing the SWM16s & E2 with a DSWM30, which I agree 100% you should do eventually) because at least now you have the problem isolated to 8 receivers and 8 coax runs. You have the opportunity to further isolate it and determine the cause so you can fix the actual issue. If you move things around maybe the problem goes away temporarily or happens less frequently, but it isn't really solved and comes back someday when something else changes.

One thing I didn't think of it that would make narrowing down the problem easier so you don't have to swap 8 receiver locations or replace 16 coax connectors. Divide those 8 receivers up from one splitter onto two splitters, making use of your currently unused SWM16 output. The problem should then be narrowed down to 4 receivers instead of 8, and you can easily narrow it down further each time it occurs and you're able to visit the site by switching receivers 1 or 2 at a time to the 'other' splitter until you have identified the problem child. Then you can do a receiver swap to see if the problem follows the receiver or stays with the coax.

Keep us posted.

 

[satinstallerguy]

For that type of setup you need a TAMP and Polarity Locker...

 

[MixedMarket]

For that type of setup you need a TAMP and Polarity Locker...

Question: Is that just a best practice or you it might solve my issue? Also, with the polarity locker from what I can tell it would power the dish so does that mean I disconnect the power inserters? I know with the SWiMs it doesn't matter where you connect the 4 cables from the dish but I'm thinking it would matter with the polarity locker. If so, how can you tell which is which?
Thank you for the information!

 

[slice1900]

Question: Is that just a best practice or you it might solve my issue? Also, with the polarity locker from what I can tell it would power the dish so does that mean I disconnect the power inserters? I know with the SWiMs it doesn't matter where you connect the 4 cables from the dish but I'm thinking it would matter with the polarity locker. If so, how can you tell which is which?
Thank you for the information!

I've heard that Directv recommends a polarity locker for all commercial installs. The amp isn't needed, especially when you move to a DSWM30. This isn't a possible fix for your issues, so it isn't something you should consider until after you've figured out the problem and resolved it. Then you could add a polarity locker, but on an install with a single DSWM30 it would be pretty much irrelevant.

It doesn't matter which of the four cables connect from the LNB to the polarity locker. It does matter after the polarity locker, in installs where you had trunk lines running between floors you'd need to keep track of which cable is which (or determine it after the fact by connecting them at the dish one at a time and using a meter or other means to see which one gets "lit up")

 

[slice1900]

You can also figure out which cable is which by looking at the foot markings. I ran some speaker cable last year to add/move some speakers around and all the ends were just pushed down through the ceiling in the mechanical room where all my wiring terminates and the amps, network equipment, Directv stuff etc. lives with no way to keep track of which is which.

When I connected the ends on the speaker side to wall plates I made sure to note the foot marking and whether the numbers were ascending or descending for each location. Then when I was connecting the other end to a patch panel it wasn't too hard to determine and mark which wire went to what location.