RE: [VOOM] PQ IS Worse Than Ever!

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K

Kenneth

Guest
Original poster
[VOOM] PQ IS Worse Than Ever!

Most of my channels look worse than ever. It's like watching a VCD
on a large screen. TNTHD looks as if it is being broadcast through
coke bottles. I'm also having lip sync issues on many channels. If
this continues, it won't matter what happens come April 1st.
Very disgusted,
fireman1000






------------------------
 
Anyone else having this or could it be the tv?



_____

From: Kenneth [mailto:fireman1000@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 7:14 AM
To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [VOOM] PQ IS Worse Than Ever!




Most of my channels look worse than ever. It's like watching a VCD
on a large screen. TNTHD looks as if it is being broadcast through
coke bottles. I'm also having lip sync issues on many channels. If
this continues, it won't matter what happens come April 1st.
Very disgusted,
fireman1000



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------
 
TNT is the source of the their problems. I watched JFK last night and
instead of broadcasting it in it's 'actual' 4:3 format, they stretched
it to 16:9.

Sounds like you are having some signal degredation issues.

Kenneth wrote:

>Most of my channels look worse than ever. It's like watching a VCD
>on a large screen. TNTHD looks as if it is being broadcast through
>coke bottles. I'm also having lip sync issues on many channels. If
>this continues, it won't matter what happens come April 1st.
>Very disgusted,
>fireman1000
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


------------------------
 
Robert there is a long thread that started yesterday by Sean over at
SatelliteGuys while we were watching the live Worldsport game of the
week.

On Mar 21, 2005, at 7:33 AM, Robert Heitner (Yahoo) wrote:

> Anyone else having this or could it be the tv?
>
>
>
>   _____ 
>
> From: Kenneth [mailto:fireman1000@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 7:14 AM
> To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [VOOM] PQ IS Worse Than Ever!
>
>
>
>
> Most of my channels look worse than ever. It's like watching a VCD
> on a large screen. TNTHD looks as if it is being broadcast through
> coke bottles. I'm also having lip sync issues on many channels. If
> this continues, it won't matter what happens come April 1st.
> Very disgusted,
> fireman1000
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
> <22305_0205_016_b_300250_a.gif>
> <l.gif>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> • To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VOOM/
>  
> • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> VOOM-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  
> • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------
 
Mine is just fine. I haven't had any major probleems since I got the 24" dish last fall.

Bob

"Robert Heitner (Yahoo)" <ddprobert@yahoo.com> wrote:
Anyone else having this or could it be the tv?



_____

From: Kenneth [mailto:fireman1000@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 7:14 AM
To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [VOOM] PQ IS Worse Than Ever!




Most of my channels look worse than ever. It's like watching a VCD
on a large screen. TNTHD looks as if it is being broadcast through
coke bottles. I'm also having lip sync issues on many channels. If
this continues, it won't matter what happens come April 1st.
Very disgusted,
fireman1000



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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---------------------------------
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VOOM-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------
 
So is the pbm limited to TNT or all Voom channels or all Voom HD channels?



Kenneth says "Most of my channels" .. not just specific to TNT



??



_____

From: Sam Robertson [mailto:samr@slriv.com]
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 7:53 AM
To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [VOOM] PQ IS Worse Than Ever!



TNT is the source of the their problems. I watched JFK last night and
instead of broadcasting it in it's 'actual' 4:3 format, they stretched
it to 16:9.

Sounds like you are having some signal degredation issues.

Kenneth wrote:

>Most of my channels look worse than ever. It's like watching a VCD
>on a large screen. TNTHD looks as if it is being broadcast through
>coke bottles. I'm also having lip sync issues on many channels. If
>this continues, it won't matter what happens come April 1st.
>Very disgusted,
>fireman1000
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



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oups/S=1705036932:HM/EXP=1111499658/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*http:/www.n
etflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075> click here



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------
 
[VOOM] Re: PQ IS Worse Than Ever!

--- In VOOM@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth" <fireman1000@y...> wrote:
>
> Most of my channels look worse than ever. It's like watching a VCD
> on a large screen. TNTHD looks as if it is being broadcast through
> coke bottles. I'm also having lip sync issues on many channels. If
> this continues, it won't matter what happens come April 1st.
> Very disgusted,
> fireman1000

I've noticed it as well. I watched Sea of Love last night on
Universal HD, and it was pretty poor quality (mostly a bad transfer,
I think, but there were motion artifacts in the scene where the
killer tries to kill the Al Pacino character that were really bad!).

Oh well, I'm sure they'll figure it out. Still better than cable's
signal. :)

-John






------------------------
 
[VOOM] Re: PQ IS Worse Than Ever!

I know Voom engineers are in the process of tweaking the channels
since implementing the new harmonic encoders but my picture has
seriously degraded. Some are unwatchable! Most channels, not all.
There is serious macroblocking and fuzziness especially during any
movement. By the way, I have a 30" dish and my problems all started
AFTER the new encoders were used.
Thanks,
fireman1000





------------------------
 
It's not limited to TNT. I think those of us who watch Voom HD
exclusives excluding Cinema 1-10 have noticed it the most. I will say
this, if there is alot of action it's more pixelated because 1080i is
susceptible to this unless the data transmission rate is high (i.e.
HDnet with MLS soccer no pixelation) There is a reason FOX and ESPN
chose 720p instead of 1080i with all the sports action. The PBS-HD
channel that I pickup with my C-band system has pixelation when there
is alot of action. All the compression rates need to be boosted. it
all started with the new encoders.

On Mar 21, 2005, at 8:05 AM, Robert Heitner (Yahoo) wrote:

> So is the pbm limited to TNT or all Voom channels or all Voom HD
> channels?
>
>
>
> Kenneth says "Most of my channels" .. not just specific to TNT
>
>
>
> ??
>
>
>
>   _____ 
>
> From: Sam Robertson [mailto:samr@slriv.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 7:53 AM
> To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [VOOM] PQ IS Worse Than Ever!
>
>
>
> TNT is the source of the their problems.  I watched JFK last night and
> instead of broadcasting it in it's 'actual' 4:3 format, they stretched
> it to 16:9.
>
> Sounds like you are having some signal degredation issues.
>
> Kenneth wrote:
>
> >Most of my channels look worse than ever. It's like watching a VCD
> >on a large screen. TNTHD looks as if it is being broadcast through
> >coke bottles. I'm also having lip sync issues on many channels. If
> >this continues, it won't matter what happens come April 1st.
> >Very disgusted,
> >fireman1000
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129euvcev/
> M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/D=gr
>
> oups/S=1705036932:HM/EXP=1111499658/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*http:
> /www.n
> etflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075> click here
>
>
>
>
> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/
> D=groups/S=
> :HM/A=2593423/rand=999039627>
>
>
>
>   _____ 
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> *      To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VOOM/
>  
> *      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> VOOM-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:VOOM-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>  
> *      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
> <22305_0205_016_b_300250_a.gif>
> <l.gif>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> • To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VOOM/
>  
> • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> VOOM-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  
> • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------
 
Re: [VOOM] Re: PQ IS Worse Than Ever!

Fireman, the size of your dish is not related to the compression rate

On Mar 21, 2005, at 8:38 AM, Kenneth wrote:

>
> I know Voom engineers are in the process of tweaking the channels
> since implementing the new harmonic encoders but my picture has
> seriously degraded.  Some are unwatchable!  Most channels, not all. 
> There is serious macroblocking and fuzziness especially during any
> movement.  By the way, I have a 30" dish and my problems all started
> AFTER the new encoders were used.
> Thanks,
> fireman1000
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
> <22305_0205_016_b_300250_a.gif>
> <l.gif>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> • To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VOOM/
>  
> • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> VOOM-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  
> • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------
 
Has anyone noticed the sound quality has gone to hell on Rave and some other
channels or is it just my audio connection?
----- Original Message -----
From: "tfouts" <timothyfouts@mac.com>
To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 6:46 AM
Subject: Re: [VOOM] PQ IS Worse Than Ever!



It's not limited to TNT. I think those of us who watch Voom HD
exclusives excluding Cinema 1-10 have noticed it the most. I will say
this, if there is alot of action it's more pixelated because 1080i is
susceptible to this unless the data transmission rate is high (i.e.
HDnet with MLS soccer no pixelation) There is a reason FOX and ESPN
chose 720p instead of 1080i with all the sports action. The PBS-HD
channel that I pickup with my C-band system has pixelation when there
is alot of action. All the compression rates need to be boosted. it
all started with the new encoders.

On Mar 21, 2005, at 8:05 AM, Robert Heitner (Yahoo) wrote:

> So is the pbm limited to TNT or all Voom channels or all Voom HD
> channels?
>
>
>
> Kenneth says "Most of my channels" .. not just specific to TNT
>
>
>
> ??
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: Sam Robertson [mailto:samr@slriv.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 7:53 AM
> To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [VOOM] PQ IS Worse Than Ever!
>
>
>
> TNT is the source of the their problems. I watched JFK last night and
> instead of broadcasting it in it's 'actual' 4:3 format, they stretched
> it to 16:9.
>
> Sounds like you are having some signal degredation issues.
>
> Kenneth wrote:
>
> >Most of my channels look worse than ever. It's like watching a VCD
> >on a large screen. TNTHD looks as if it is being broadcast through
> >coke bottles. I'm also having lip sync issues on many channels. If
> >this continues, it won't matter what happens come April 1st.
> >Very disgusted,
> >fireman1000
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129euvcev/
> M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/D=gr
>
> oups/S=1705036932:HM/EXP=1111499658/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*http:
> /www.n
> etflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075> click here
>
>
>
>
> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/
> D=groups/S=
> :HM/A=2593423/rand=999039627>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VOOM/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> VOOM-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:VOOM-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
> <22305_0205_016_b_300250_a.gif>
> <l.gif>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> . To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VOOM/
>
> . To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> VOOM-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> . Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Yahoo! Groups Links









------------------------
 
Bruce, my audio has ben fine. I thought it would be both audio and
video. In my setup it's just the video

On Mar 21, 2005, at 2:20 PM, Bruce Grodner wrote:

> Has anyone noticed the sound quality has gone to hell on Rave and some
> other
> channels or is it just my audio connection?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tfouts" <timothyfouts@mac.com>
> To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 6:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [VOOM] PQ IS Worse Than Ever!
>
>
>
> It's not limited to TNT.  I think those of us who watch Voom HD
> exclusives excluding Cinema 1-10 have noticed it the most.  I will say
> this,  if there is alot of action it's more pixelated because 1080i is
> susceptible to this unless the data transmission rate is high (i.e.
> HDnet with MLS soccer no pixelation) There is a reason FOX and ESPN
> chose 720p instead of 1080i with all the sports action.  The PBS-HD
> channel that I pickup with my C-band system has pixelation when there
> is alot of action.  All the compression rates need to be boosted.  it
> all started with the new encoders.
>
> On Mar 21, 2005, at 8:05 AM, Robert Heitner (Yahoo) wrote:
>
> > So is the pbm limited to TNT or all Voom channels or all Voom HD
> > channels?
> >
> >
> >
> >  Kenneth says "Most of my channels" .. not just specific to TNT
> >
> >
> >
> >  ??
> >
> >
> >
> >  _____
> >
> >  From: Sam Robertson [mailto:samr@slriv.com]
> >  Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 7:53 AM
> >  To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> >  Subject: Re: [VOOM] PQ IS Worse Than Ever!
> >
> >
> >
> >  TNT is the source of the their problems. I watched JFK last night
> and
> >  instead of broadcasting it in it's 'actual' 4:3 format, they
> stretched
> >  it to 16:9.
> >
> >  Sounds like you are having some signal degredation issues.
> >
> >  Kenneth wrote:
> >
> >  >Most of my channels look worse than ever. It's like watching a VCD
> >  >on a large screen. TNTHD looks as if it is being broadcast through
> >  >coke bottles. I'm also having lip sync issues on many channels. If
> >  >this continues, it won't matter what happens come April 1st.
> >  >Very disgusted,
> >  >fireman1000
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> >
> >
> >  ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129euvcev/
> > M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/D=gr
> >
> >
> oups/S=1705036932:HM/EXP=1111499658/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*http:
> > /www.n
> >  etflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075> click here
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/
> > D=groups/S=
> >  :HM/A=2593423/rand=999039627>
> >
> >
> >
> >  _____
> >
> >  Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >  * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VOOM/
> >
> >  * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >  VOOM-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >  <mailto:VOOM-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> >  * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> >  <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
> >
> >
> >
> >  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> > <22305_0205_016_b_300250_a.gif>
> > <l.gif>
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > . To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VOOM/
> >
> > . To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > VOOM-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > . Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
> <22305_0205_016_b_300250_a.gif>
> <l.gif>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> • To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VOOM/
>  
> • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> VOOM-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  
> • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
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>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------
 
Thanks. I'll check my audio connections and roputing.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Fouts" <timothyfouts@mac.com>
To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [VOOM] PQ IS Worse Than Ever!



Bruce, my audio has ben fine. I thought it would be both audio and
video. In my setup it's just the video

On Mar 21, 2005, at 2:20 PM, Bruce Grodner wrote:

> Has anyone noticed the sound quality has gone to hell on Rave and some
> other
> channels or is it just my audio connection?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tfouts" <timothyfouts@mac.com>
> To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 6:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [VOOM] PQ IS Worse Than Ever!
>
>
>
> It's not limited to TNT. I think those of us who watch Voom HD
> exclusives excluding Cinema 1-10 have noticed it the most. I will say
> this, if there is alot of action it's more pixelated because 1080i is
> susceptible to this unless the data transmission rate is high (i.e.
> HDnet with MLS soccer no pixelation) There is a reason FOX and ESPN
> chose 720p instead of 1080i with all the sports action. The PBS-HD
> channel that I pickup with my C-band system has pixelation when there
> is alot of action. All the compression rates need to be boosted. it
> all started with the new encoders.
>
> On Mar 21, 2005, at 8:05 AM, Robert Heitner (Yahoo) wrote:
>
> > So is the pbm limited to TNT or all Voom channels or all Voom HD
> > channels?
> >
> >
> >
> > Kenneth says "Most of my channels" .. not just specific to TNT
> >
> >
> >
> > ??
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: Sam Robertson [mailto:samr@slriv.com]
> > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 7:53 AM
> > To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [VOOM] PQ IS Worse Than Ever!
> >
> >
> >
> > TNT is the source of the their problems. I watched JFK last night
> and
> > instead of broadcasting it in it's 'actual' 4:3 format, they
> stretched
> > it to 16:9.
> >
> > Sounds like you are having some signal degredation issues.
> >
> > Kenneth wrote:
> >
> > >Most of my channels look worse than ever. It's like watching a VCD
> > >on a large screen. TNTHD looks as if it is being broadcast through
> > >coke bottles. I'm also having lip sync issues on many channels. If
> > >this continues, it won't matter what happens come April 1st.
> > >Very disgusted,
> > >fireman1000
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> >
> >
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129euvcev/
> > M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/D=gr
> >
> >
> oups/S=1705036932:HM/EXP=1111499658/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*http:
> > /www.n
> > etflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075> click here
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/
> > D=groups/S=
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------------------------
 
I've only noticed this on TNT and a while back on ESPN-HD. Everything
else seems fine right now.

Robert Heitner (Yahoo) wrote:

>So is the pbm limited to TNT or all Voom channels or all Voom HD channels?
>
>
>
>Kenneth says "Most of my channels" .. not just specific to TNT
>
>
>
>??
>
>
>
> _____
>
>From: Sam Robertson [mailto:samr@slriv.com]
>Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 7:53 AM
>To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [VOOM] PQ IS Worse Than Ever!
>
>
>
>TNT is the source of the their problems. I watched JFK last night and
>instead of broadcasting it in it's 'actual' 4:3 format, they stretched
>it to 16:9.
>
>Sounds like you are having some signal degredation issues.
>
>Kenneth wrote:
>
>
>
>>Most of my channels look worse than ever. It's like watching a VCD
>>on a large screen. TNTHD looks as if it is being broadcast through
>>coke bottles. I'm also having lip sync issues on many channels. If
>>this continues, it won't matter what happens come April 1st.
>>Very disgusted,
>>fireman1000
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>ADVERTISEMENT
>
><http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129euvcev/M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/D=gr
>oups/S=1705036932:HM/EXP=1111499658/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*http:/www.n
>etflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075> click here
>
>
>
><http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/D=groups/S=
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>


------------------------
 
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