PS3 HD audio problems!

[teamerickson]

By Henning Molbaek

FIRST PUBLISHED May 8, 2007

The PlayStation 3 has been called the most comprehensive Blu-ray Disc player available by Sony. They even plan to start a campaign later on the year to hype this claimed fact.

However, recent discoveries has made one seriously doubt these claims. The issue is audio output particularly the new HD codecs Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD. The unit has no 5.1 analog output so you can't get it out that way. However, it has a HDMI V1.3 port so everything should be great. But no, it does not support the transfer of the required bit streams to an external decoder / AV receiver like the recently announced Onkyo models. You can get the unit itself to decode Dolby TrueHD (NOT DTS HD) and send it as uncompressed audio to the receiver. But if you trust your new THX ULTRA 2 certified receiver to be a better unit for the job you are in bad luck. It is not possible.

So if you want all the wonders of HD on disc perhaps Playstation 3 is not the perfect choice.

 

[CochiseGuy]

Not on audio problems, but . . . . .

To clarify, the PS3 can decode Dolby TrueHD, but only output it via HDMI as PCM to a HDMI receiver. But yes, it cannot decode DTS-MA (in fairness, neither can HD DVD), but the PS3 would have to output it as bitstream via HDMI to a receiver such as the Onkyo, which would then decode. Unfortunately, the PS3 cannot output bitstream. So, those Fox BD titles with DTS-MA still don't have any way of being heard.

But, in the bigger picture:

Sony Touts Blu-ray Capabilities in New PlayStation 3 Marketing Push May 8, 2007 - Highdefdigest.com

Hoping to prime the PlayStation 3 sales pump for a blockbuster fourth quarter, Sony is launching an aggressive marketing campaign touting the console's Blu-ray capabilities.

Faced with PS3 sales lagging behind the Xbox 360 and the more family-friendly Nintendo Wii, Sony is focusing its next round of marketing might on hyping their next-gen console as the most comprehensive Blu-ray Disc player on the market.

In an upcoming marketing blitzkrieg, Sony will promote the console's cutting-edge high-def capabilities, including its extensive studio support, superior picture and sound, and web-enabled connectivity (despite the fact that no studio has yet released a Blu-ray title with online content).

"Our goal is to definitely widen our target base and not be so niche," Kim Nguyen, Sony PlayStation 3 Manager, told Video Business of the ad campaign, which is set to encompass multiple media including TV, print, radio and Internet.

"This is high-def entertainment messaging, where we have our exclusive software titles, and we are delivering a very powerful machine. On the movie side, you have beautiful movies that you can watch on the PS3. We are going for that larger audience," she added.

Sony has not yet announced an exact start date for its PS3 Blu-ray blitz, nor total marketing costs. However, the campaign is expected to begin sometime this summer, leading up to the fourth quarter.

As of March 31, current industry sales numbers for North America place the Wii at 2.1 million units sold; the Xbox 360 at 5.3 million; and the Playstation 3 at 1.2 million.



Hmmm. OK, the first thing I thought when I read the article is:

If Sony is going to start touting the PS3 as a "terrific Blu-ray player" for $599, gearing toward a "blockbuster fourth quarter," (layman terms: try to jump-start lagging sales) - what does that say about lower priced BD standalone players???? Sounds to me like they ain't gonna happen.

I haven't heard anymore about that "announced" Sony standalone player that's supposed to hit the streets this summer at $599 MSRP. At this point, they'd be pretty stupid to introduce another model that would compete directly against this PS3 marketing campaign. I don't see Pioneer coming out with a budget BD player. Samsung already has their 2 gen. BD player out at MSRP $999 and their next announced player is dual format.

Nope, sounds like a $599 game machine is the entry point for BD players for the rest of this year. Meanwhile, the folks at Toshiba are sharpening their pencils, seeing how they can knock another $100 off the list price for HD DVD players.

 

[mike123abc]

The laser diode used in the PS3 is dropping fast in price as the manufacturing finally ramps up and catches up with demand. This could result in $100 savings in costs alone. This combined with the dropping of the PS2 compatibility chips and the new higher yeilding process on the Cell processor could push the price down quite a bit. PS3 could be approaching $450 this Christmas, maybe even $399.

 

[JoeSp]

What audio problems? No current player either HD-DVD or BD can decode DTS-HD MA right now and that is a problem for the PS3 how? The PS3 can decode TrueDoblyHD and pass 7.1 channels thru the HDMI 1.3 to a 7.1 receiver that can receive 7.1 thru HDMI. It passes the DTS-HD MA as a 5.1 1.5mps core thru the HDMI. If and yes that is a big if, Sony decides to allow the PS3 to decode DTS-HD MA then the HDMI 1.3 will allow it to pass 7.1 channels to the receiver.

Just for clarification, no and I repeat NO current HD-DVD or BD player passes undecoded hig def (either TrueDolbyHD or DTS-HD MA) signal to any receiver and there are currently no receivers on the market that can decode these signals. All current HD audio decoding is done in the players and that signal is either passed as 7.1 analog direct to the receiver for pass-thru playback or it is passed thru the HDMI as a pcm signal for the reciever to play back.

It is really amazing how many non-PS3 owners jump on stories like this and they do not even know how these new audio codecs work! They just want to drop their bs on the PS3 and Sony without any reguard to the truth or how things work!

For those of you who really want to know just what LPCM is and how this issue is just so much hot air:

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=544

This is a discussion on lpcm -- what it is -- and how it works. There are other sites with more info:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/04/26/dolby-truehd-and-dts-hd-demystified/

What I find interesting is the LPCM supports a higher sample rate then either TrueDolbyHD or DTS-HD MA so I don't see the problem in converting either format to LPCM as all three are lossless formats and you will not lose one bit of audio data in the conversion.

 

[vurbano]

By Henning Molbaek

FIRST PUBLISHED May 8, 2007

The PlayStation 3 has been called the most comprehensive Blu-ray Disc player available by Sony. They even plan to start a campaign later on the year to hype this claimed fact.

However, recent discoveries has made one seriously doubt these claims. The issue is audio output particularly the new HD codecs Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD. The unit has no 5.1 analog output so you can't get it out that way. However, it has a HDMI V1.3 port so everything should be great. But no, it does not support the transfer of the required bit streams to an external decoder / AV receiver like the recently announced Onkyo models. You can get the unit itself to decode Dolby TrueHD (NOT DTS HD) and send it as uncompressed audio to the receiver. But if you trust your new THX ULTRA 2 certified receiver to be a better unit for the job you are in bad luck. It is not possible.

So if you want all the wonders of HD on disc perhaps Playstation 3 is not the perfect choice.

Sounds bad.

 

[teachsac]

Joe,

We are familiar with how both the HD-DVD and BD players work and what LPCM is. We are aware that no player will currently decode DTS-MA. The Toshiba and Panasonic do decode DT-HD which has a higher bitrate than DTS core.

That was not the point of the article and the information that has been passed on by paidgeek (Sony insider at AVS). The point is that if you have a PS3 and a 1.3 receiver with Dolby TrueHD and DTS MA capabilites, it will not send the DTSMA track to the receiver for the receiver to decode. Therfore, until IF AND WHENthe PS3 actually can do the decoding internally, there is no way to get the MA track. It will not pass the encoded track to the receiver.

S~

 

[FlyingJ]

Sounds bad.

Yup, sounds bad, but alas as explained by Joe, its not.

 

[JoeSp]

Joe,

We are familiar with how both the HD-DVD and BD players work and what LPCM is. We are aware that no player will currently decode DTS-MA. The Toshiba and Panasonic do decode DT-HD which has a higher bitrate than DTS core.

That was not the point of the article and the information that has been passed on by paidgeek (Sony insider at AVS). The point is that if you have a PS3 and a 1.3 receiver with Dolby TrueHD and DTS MA capabilites, it will not send the DTSMA track to the receiver for the receiver to decode. Therfore, until IF AND WHENthe PS3 actually can do the decoding internally, there is no way to get the MA track. It will not pass the encoded track to the receiver.

S~

Actually, the article states that there is no way to pass the native DTS-HD MA signal to the receiver for the receiver to decode. It did not state:

1. That the PS3 would never be able to decode DTS-HD MA internally.

2. That it was not possible for the PS3 to be able to decode DTS-HD MA internally with the right software upgrade.

3. That once decoded internally that the PS3 would not be able to deliver the decoded DTS-HD MA signal to a 7.1 HDMI 1.3 equiped receiver thru the HDMI port.

You have made alot of assumptions from the article based on the fact that the PS3 currently cannot pass the undecoded DTS-HD MA signal thru to a receiver for the receiver to decode. Those assumptions -- as usual are wrong.

Since both the BD and HD-DVD want the player to decode the lossless audio data then passing that information undecoded to the receiver is not always neccessary. Yes, it might be nice to let your $5000 receiver decode those data streams but having the player do that will not result in any lost data.

 

[teachsac]

Actually, the article states that there is no way to pass the native DTS-HD MA signal to the receiver for the receiver to decode. It did not state:

1. That the PS3 would never be able to decode DTS-HD MA internally.

2. That it was not possible for the PS3 to be able to decode DTS-HD MA internally with the right software upgrade.

3. That once decoded internally that the PS3 would not be able to deliver the decoded DTS-HD MA signal to a 7.1 HDMI 1.3 equiped receiver thru the HDMI port.

You have made alot of assumptions from the article based on the fact that the PS3 currently cannot pass the undecoded DTS-HD MA signal thru to a receiver for the receiver to decode. Those assumptions -- as usual are wrong.

Since both the BD and HD-DVD want the player to decode the lossless audio data then passing that information undecoded to the receiver is not always neccessary. Yes, it might be nice to let your $5000 receiver decode those data streams but having the player do that will not result in any lost data.

Joe,

I put in BOLD letters that until if and when. Nowhere in my post did I say it would never decode internally, would never receive an upgrade, nor once decoded send it to the receiver. I said that right now even though the PS3 has HDMi 1.3 it will not pass DTSMA to a capable 1.3 receiver for the receiver to decode. You stated in past threads that you were into the Denon when they come out for that purpose. This article and paidgeek stated that it is not possible at this point in time. I would like to see the PS3 and everyother HD player be able to decode DTSMA.

S~

 

[CochiseGuy]

Joe,

I put in BOLD letters that until if and when. Nowhere in my post did I say it would never decode internally, would never receive an upgrade, nor once decoded send it to the receiver. I said that right now even though the PS3 has HDMi 1.3 it will not pass DTSMA to a capable 1.3 receiver for the receiver to decode. You stated in past threads that you were into the Denon when they come out for that purpose. This article and paidgeek stated that it is not possible at this point in time. I would like to see the PS3 and everyother HD player be able to decode DTSMA.

S~

Hopefully this isn't too off-topic, but is there any specific advantage to DTS HD-MA over Dolby TrueHD? As I understand, both contain lossless audio when fully decoded. Both have a "core" DTS & DD+ that can be extracted when not fully decoded.

After reading of this current inability for either Blu-ray or HD DVD to full decode or output HD-MA, I checked the releases. No HD DVD's in North America use HD-MA, there are a number of HD DVD's in Europe from Studio Canal encoded with HD-MA. For Blu-ray, only Fox uses it, on about a dozen titles.

It would just seem a heck of a lot easier for HD DVD to use TrueHD and Blu-ray to use LPCM when disk space isn't an issue, or TrueHD when they want to use 25GB disk or for other reasons. All standalone HD DVD players are required to decode & output TrueHD, and the PS3 & Panasonic BD players decode it.

An Joe, a receiver doesn't need to cost $5000 to be able to decode HD audio. Since I have to upgrade my receiver to HDMI to accommodate the PS3 for HD audio, I've pre-ordered the Onkyo 605 due out later this month, for $399.

 

[teachsac]

Hopefully this isn't too off-topic, but is there any specific advantage to DTS HD-MA over Dolby TrueHD? As I understand, both contain lossless audio when fully decoded. Both have a "core" DTS & DD+ that can be extracted when not fully decoded.

After reading of this current inability for either Blu-ray or HD DVD to full decode or output HD-MA, I checked the releases. No HD DVD's in North America use HD-MA, there are a number of HD DVD's in Europe from Studio Canal encoded with HD-MA. For Blu-ray, only Fox uses it, on about a dozen titles.

It would just seem a heck of a lot easier for HD DVD to use TrueHD and Blu-ray to use LPCM when disk space isn't an issue, or TrueHD when they want to use 25GB disk or for other reasons. All standalone HD DVD players are required to decode & output TrueHD, and the PS3 & Panasonic BD players decode it.

An Joe, a receiver doesn't need to cost $5000 to be able to decode HD audio. Since I have to upgrade my receiver to HDMI to accommodate the PS3 for HD audio, I've pre-ordered the Onkyo 605 due out later this month, for $399.

Both Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HS Master Audio are both lossless codecs. The main difference being in the artichecture. Dolby True HD and DTS-HD are mandatory for HD-DVD and Optional for Blu-ray. BD requires only the DTS and DD core. Why Fox would use an optional codec that no player can decode is beyond all of us. One reason might be is they have used 25GB discs and need the compressed audio for space. Even the second gen players from Pioneer and Samsung don't decode MA. DTS-MA is a very extensive and intricate codec that requires a lot of processing. With the Cell processor, the PS3 might/should be able to handle it, but there has been no announcement/promise from Sony for support only a "rumor" that it was coming in a March upgrade that never materialized. The general feeling from everyone, including Joe, was that the PS3 would send the DTSMA track to the receiver through bitstream for the receiver to decode. This turned out not to be the case.

Your last paragraph brings the receiver issue into true light. With the players doing the decoding and sending it as LPCM, a 1.3 capable receiver is not necessary. The A/V world is a complete mess. Since HDMI is not upgradable, they have alienated many of the High End manufacturers. What happens next year when you need 1.4 or 1.5 the year after? Only Denon and Krell have even announced (that i have heard) separates that will be 1.3 compliant with High Definition codecs being supported. Receivers are a different story, they are less expensive and generate a lot of revenue from the average consumer. But again, with players doing the decoding, what is the point. HD-DVD already uses advanced authoring and BD is supposed to follow in October.

S~

 

[JoeSp]

Teachsac, I will agree with you 100% as to the confusion these differant HDMI versions has caused not only for the manufacturers who seem to be balking at newer versions but also J6P. 1.3 does alow for full 7.1 HD pass thru to a decoding receiver of the undecoded data (if the player will allow it), lipsyncing (if all three componets - player, avr, monitor - have 1.3) and billions of colours (not that our eye can see everyone of them - just makes the picture sharper).

CochciseGuy, I think the perception is that since DTS is better than DolbyDigital in the DVD realm that in the HD discs realm that DTS-HD MA would be better than TrueDolbyHD. Since it is the more intricate of the two that would seem to make sense. But, since there are no players or avrs currently decoding DTS-HD MA for us to play with we will have to wait until this fall when we will begin to see both players and avrs that will either decode or pass undecoded to the receiver the DTS-HD MA codec. Until then we must be happy with TrueDolbyHD and PCM which is already considerably better than what we were hearing on regular DVDs.

 

[teachsac]

Yes, HDMI 1.3 is able to pass the encoded data provided 2 things: the player allows it and the disc is authored to allow it. I would think that Sony would be able to fix this "problem" of not passing the DTSMA track to the receiver with an upgrade in the future. This might be better for the PS3 than having the player doing the decoding as from what I have heard (not gospel) is that it is a software layer rather than actual hardware decoding. Kind of like do I use the analogs on the player or HDMi connector. A receiver will always have better DACs than the player.

The "perception" that DTS is better is just that. DTS seems louder and louder is better right? Dolby to me seems more accurate when it comes to dialog and soundtrack as it is built on the MLP Lossless technology.

S~

 

[CochiseGuy]

First of all, maybe we out to change the thread title to "HD Audio Problems" and leave out the PS3, as the problems affect both HD DVD & Blu-ray players.

Both Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HS Master Audio are both lossless codecs. The main difference being in the artichecture. Dolby True HD and DTS-HD are mandatory for HD-DVD and Optional for Blu-ray. BD requires only the DTS and DD core.

It's my understanding HD DVD specs require the player to be able to decode just one of the HD audio formats, and so far they all only support TrueHD. I think Blu-ray should have done the same, but Sony was probably thinking with all that extra disk space they could just use LPCM and not bother with the decoding. The BD releases with PCM seem to get very high marks, but almost always have to be DL 50GB.

Why Fox would use an optional codec that no player can decode is beyond all of us. One reason might be is they have used 25GB discs and need the compressed audio for space. Even the second gen players from Pioneer and Samsung don't decode MA. DTS-MA is a very extensive and intricate codec that requires a lot of processing. With the Cell processor, the PS3 might/should be able to handle it, but there has been no announcement/promise from Sony for support only a "rumor" that it was coming in a March upgrade that never materialized. The general feeling from everyone, including Joe, was that the PS3 would send the DTSMA track to the receiver through bitstream for the receiver to decode. This turned out not to be the case.

Yes Fox seemed to have strangely opted for 25GB discs and compressed audio. Perhaps their strategy was that they could easily port them over to HD DVD 30GB discs? (Some can dream )
There's been a lot of speculation on Fox's lack of recent releases, with many speculating that since Fox is one of the most paranoid about pirating that with the AACS hack they're waiting for BD+. Perhaps since no one has heard their audio tracks in full quality - and unlikely to anytime soon - they're re-thinking that HD-MA strategy?

Your last paragraph brings the receiver issue into true light. With the players doing the decoding and sending it as LPCM, a 1.3 capable receiver is not necessary. The A/V world is a complete mess. Since HDMI is not upgradable, they have alienated many of the High End manufacturers. What happens next year when you need 1.4 or 1.5 the year after? Only Denon and Krell have even announced (that i have heard) separates that will be 1.3 compliant with High Definition codecs being supported. Receivers are a different story, they are less expensive and generate a lot of revenue from the average consumer. But again, with players doing the decoding, what is the point. HD-DVD already uses advanced authoring and BD is supposed to follow in October.

S~

Yes, even though I have the Onkyo 605 on pre-order, I've been looking for alternatives. With players decoding HD compressed audio codecs and uncompressed, who needs a receiver with all that crap? All one really needs is an amplifier. And, man, is their a lot of crap out there. I was looking into a Sony Sony STRDG710, and HDMI receiver that can be had for around $250 street price. Even SonyStyle.com promotes it as "optimized for the PS3 and Blu-ray playback". It has 2 HDMI inputs, but do you know what - they're only pass-through for video, it can't extract any audio from the HDMI input! What genius dreamed that one up?

CochciseGuy, I think the perception is that since DTS is better than DolbyDigital in the DVD realm that in the HD discs realm that DTS-HD MA would be better than TrueDolbyHD. Since it is the more intricate of the two that would seem to make sense. But, since there are no players or avrs currently decoding DTS-HD MA for us to play with we will have to wait until this fall when we will begin to see both players and avrs that will either decode or pass undecoded to the receiver the DTS-HD MA codec. Until then we must be happy with TrueDolbyHD and PCM which is already considerably better than what we were hearing on regular DVDs.

Yes, I remember when I started getting DVD's with DTS and was impressed how much better they sounded. That's one of the reasons I asked if there was any advantage DTS HD-MA over TrueHD. I've been impressed with the TrueHD audio on HD DVD's. But it doesn't sound like anyone other than technicians / engineers know what DTS HD-MA sounds like.

How are you listening to the PCM audio on your BD discs? Do you have an HDMI receiver? It's my understanding that with digital coax/optical connection, you only get 2 channel PCM becuase of bandwidth limitations, so the only way to enjoy multi-channel LPCM is through HDMI or analog, which the PS3 doesn't have.

 

[teachsac]

First of all, maybe we out to change the thread title to "HD Audio Problems" and leave out the PS3, as the problems affect both HD DVD & Blu-ray players.

It's my understanding HD DVD specs require the player to be able to decode just one of the HD audio formats, and so far they all only support TrueHD. I think Blu-ray should have done the same, but Sony was probably thinking with all that extra disk space they could just use LPCM and not bother with the decoding. The BD releases with PCM seem to get very high marks, but almost always have to be DL 50GB.

Agreed there. It's a mess. With HDDVD the player does decode TrueHD and sends PCM to the receiver even with a 1.3 capable receiver. DTS sends bitstream to the receiver for decoding. No-one knows how HD-DVD actually handles this since nothing is DTSMA. My understanding is that HDDVD does require decoding to ensure compatability with older receivers. Could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time and won't be the last Hopefully BD will clean up their act and at least allow sending of DTSMA bitstream to the receiver for decoding.

S~

 

[JoeSp]

I have only been listening to the 5.1 lossy cores of DolbyDigital and Dts thru the optical port. The PS3 is able to retrieve these from the HD product and pass them as lossy 5.1. The only current advantage is that they are always at the highest bit-rate possible so they sound very good. This is the reason I am looking for a new reciever.