Proper ground effect picture quality?

[ibleedblue]

Proper ground affect picture quality?

I have a 522 receiver and the picture from it really stinks. It's blurry and dark scenes are nearly impossible to see, especially on the locals. It's been like this since day one back in February and I chalked it up to bad compression from E*. However, browsing around I see people talking about grounding the system. I am 99% sure the installer (from Dish) did not ground anything. There is no grounding block for the RG-6 outside. The messenger wire is hooked to the dish, but I don't see where it's connected to anything else. I'm going under the house today when I get home to make sure there's nothing grounded there, but I'm positive there's not since I was working under the house with the installer.

So, if nothing is grounded will that cause this crappy picture I'm seeing? I've calibrated the TV and all that good stuff, but still looks like crap. Very fuzzy and no clean sharp edges. Much worse than the digital cable I dropped for this system. I have to mute the color way down just to get the picture to look acceptable. Any help is appreciated!

 

[SimpleSimon]

No. Missing ground will NOT affect PQ. You might have some kind of TV connection issues - give us all the details about that - and how about TV1 vs. TV2? Trouble on both? If you haven't used TV2, try hooking up to that to see what happens.

As for grounding - call Dish and tell them you don't see any and they better send someone out to do the #$%@#ing job right.

 

[ibleedblue]

Simon, Thanks for the help! Right now, TV1 is feeding a 54" Samsung in the living room via the RCA outs. It's not a HD, just a basic projection TV. I can't use S-Video because the DVD player is hooked up to it. I've tried S-Video and there's no detectable difference in the PQ between the two. TV2 is feeding a 25" in the bedroom.

The two RG-6 lines from the satellite run through the foundation. Sat-1 runs right up through the wall to a plate and on to the 522. Sat-2 runs to a mux/demux (or stacker/destacker...don't know which) that combines the Sat-2 signal and the TV-2 signal. The line then runs up the wall to the same plate to another mux/demux and splits to the TV2 out and Sat-2 in. All this is over RG-6 coax. I'm getting above 100 on the signal meter on most transponders.

I switched the TV1 and TV2 signals and there's no detectable difference between the two, unfortunately. A friend of mine mentioned that I might have a grounding loop and suggested trying a ground loop isolater. I've used those in audio applications (in cars) but never in a video application.

Maybe this is just the way E*'s picture is? The locals are really bad and the next worst channel (that we watch anyway) is The Travel Channel. On this channel, when someone moves it looks like they trail a blur of themselves behind them...almost like a comet tail or something. Some shows are nearly unwatchable and you can forget seeing any real detail on anything on TTC.

Any other suggestions? Thanks!

 

[ShadowEKU]

hmmm... my PQ is excellent... I cant even compare it with cable... I wonder if the projection part has anything to do with it... not saying that projection is bad... jsut that E* might not agree with it.

 

[ibleedblue]

hmmm... my PQ is excellent... I cant even compare it with cable... I wonder if the projection part has anything to do with it... not saying that projection is bad... jsut that E* might not agree with it.

I thought about that too. I had this TV with D* a couple of years back and had no problems at all. Also had it with digital cable and no problems there on the digital channels. The analog channels looked like crap, but that's just cable. I remember my wife and I being disappointed in the PQ when we went from D* to cable, and even more disappointed when going from cable to E*.

 

[haertig]

PQ on the modulated output begin fed to my upstairs 20" CRT TV is more pleasing to the eye than PQ on my 60" projection Mitsubishi fed with RCA video. I don't think "bigger is better" when watching satellite. At least not in my experience. My experience with s-video is similar to yours: s-video on the TV is taken up by the DVD player leaving only RCA for satellite. Testing s-video vs. RCA with DVD player as input feed shows almost imperceptible difference (we both must have good COMB filters on our TV's). The only way I can even remotely detect any difference is to look at a frozen picture and examine the edge of a straight line from about 12 inches out. And even then you almost have to imagine a difference - it's extremely subtle.

 

[SimpleSimon]

The devices on your Sat-2 and TV-2 cable are known as "Diplexers". They are band-pass filters that allow the satellite signal and the TV (VHF/UHF) signals to be separated and sent/received in separate places.

As for your PQ, remember - the picture coming in is digital. A satellite-side grounding issue may affect signal strength, but not signal "quality".

Bits is bits - they are either there or they're not. When they're not, you get pixellation - also known as "blocking". If you've never seen it, send someone out to the dish and have them wave their hand in front of the LNBF until it starts screwing up.

Now, lecture done. Try some other channels - I watch HIST, DISC, and TLC a lot and have never seen what you're talking about - and we're getting the same bits.
I get decent PQ using my 921 in either HD or SD modes going to a 60" RPTV. I also never had any trouble like that with my old 501. You might have a receiver video hardware problem - except that you say it shows up on both TV outputs, and they are totally separate hunks of hardware.

So, I don't know what to say any more than that.

 

[ShadowEKU]

I think Svid on Projection TV's doesnt render right or something... I use a remote control AV switcher to switch between my Xbox and Reciever.. im using a 36" Sony Wega and you can really tell a difference between Svid and coax and composite.... my dad's house has E* as well and hes got a giant tv in the basement i think its around 60 someodd inches and it gets some really bad quality on the svid, composite, and coax... Fortunately he really only uses it to watch Football or when they have company over... but still i just dont thing echostars equipment is Projection Friendly. and with satelite the Bigger the better isnt true... it's the farther from the tv the bigger...

 

[SimpleSimon]

Well, I use a 60" Philips HDTV. It's rear projection, and works just fine with everything I've ever hooked to it - component, S-Video, or RCA.

 

[ShadowEKU]

Im wondering if it has anything to do with the comb filters in the TV's... it also depends on if they are RPLCD or RPCRT.... that could make a world of difference.

 

[WeeJavaDude]

You should be able to tell the difference in PQ with svideo and composite. Especially with a RPTV 50". The problem with a Digital pictures like SAT is as you enlarge it artifacts become more apparent.

Couple of questions and points.

1) How far are you sitting when you watch the picture. With a 54" set you should be at least 10 ft away from the set. 12 ft would be better. The close you are to the set the more appearent the artifacts are.

2) Do you have any sharpening technology on the set? This will sharpen the artificats and possible degrade the PQ.

3) Has your set be ISF calibrated? This can greatly improver your SAT PQ.

3) Have you tried hooking the box up to a 27" TV and check the PQ out.

4) Composite is the lowest Quality signal you can get. The fact that you see no difference from composite to svideo on a TV your size is a red flag.

5) Some RPTV do better at scaling then others. From what I have read Hitachi does a nice job with Svideo/composite material. Big screens really excel the higher the quality the signal is. The do great with 720p and 1080. Not so good with 480i.

6) Are you stretching the picture? that will also effect PQ. If you are, try it unstreched and see if it makes a different.

7) Power conditionair improved my PQ with my 811 and Sony GWII. Mileage will vary and some people think it is snake oil. In my case the investment was worth it.

 

[SimpleSimon]

Power conditioning is ALWAYS a good thing to do. It certainly CAN help some devices performance, but at the very least, it's good protection for the deteriorating power grid in many parts of the country.

 

[haertig]

4) Composite is the lowest Quality signal you can get. The fact that you see no difference from composite to svideo on a TV your size is a red flag.

Actually, RF-modulated is considered worse than composite. But s-video vs. composite PQ differences depend on how good your COMB filter is. Not much difference = good COMB filter, big difference = crappy COMB filter. A high quality TV will generally have a good COMB filter, hence not a whole lot of difference between s-video and composite.

 

[WeeJavaDude]

Actually, RF-modulated is considered worse than composite. But s-video vs. composite PQ differences depend on how good your COMB filter is. Not much difference = good COMB filter, big difference = crappy COMB filter. A high quality TV will generally have a good COMB filter, hence not a whole lot of difference between s-video and composite.

I forgot about RF-modulated. Well my experience with composite vs. svideo is that svideo will give you a better picture. Guess I never had a good COMB filter.

 

[ibleedblue]

1) How far are you sitting when you watch the picture. With a 54" set you should be at least 10 ft away from the set. 12 ft would be better. The close you are to the set the more appearent the artifacts are.

The couch is right at 10' from the set.

2) Do you have any sharpening technology on the set? This will sharpen the artificats and possible degrade the PQ.

I can adjust the sharpness up and down, yes. Others have suggested turning it all the way down, but then the picture looks very fuzzy and really looks horrible. I've got it adjusted to about 25% now.

3) Has your set be ISF calibrated? This can greatly improver your SAT PQ.

I've not used an ISF calibration DVD, but on some DVD's I own, under the setup menu, there's a calibration area and 8 white/gray boxes appear. You're supposed to be able to see all 8 boxes. I can see all 8 with no problems. I don't know how this compares to ISF or if it's the same thing.

3) Have you tried hooking the box up to a 27" TV and check the PQ out.

TV2 is feeding a 25" set in the bedroom. This picture does look better than the 54" RPTV, but still not stunningly clear. It is borderline acceptable to me though.

6) Are you stretching the picture? that will also effect PQ. If you are, try it unstreched and see if it makes a different.

Nope, no stretching.

7) Power conditionair improved my PQ with my 811 and Sony GWII. Mileage will vary and some people think it is snake oil. In my case the investment was worth it.

I've not tried this. By power conditioning are you referring to a UPS? I have a 500 VA UPS on my computer that I could hook to the receiver and try.

I really think what it boils down to is my TV just doesn't like the signal it's receiving from the 522 for whatever reason. I've had other serivices in the past that were excellent and I'm going to switch back when my commitment is up in February. I'll run a side by side test first though just to see if this is all in my head. If it is, I'll return the other equipment and stick with E*. In the meantime I'll be doing whatever I can to see if my PQ will improve. Thanks for all the help and suggestions!

 

[haertig]

I didn't buy my current TV for the COMB filter. To be honest, I didn't even know what that was - other than having heard the term mentioned casually - when I bought the set. I think I just got lucky and ended up with what appears to be a decent one by sheer dumb luck. My TV was considered higher end when I purchased it many years ago, but it's clearly outclassed by newer sets these days. Some day I'll upgrade ... HD, component video inputs, progressive scan DVD player, DD6.1 (I only have 5.1) ... but it's still too expensive for my tastes these days (the HD part, that is). I really don't watch ALL that much TV or DVD's anyway!

 

[haertig]

I can adjust the sharpness up and down, yes. Others have suggested turning it all the way down, but then the picture looks very fuzzy and really looks horrible. I've got it adjusted to about 25% now.

I run my sharpness all the way down. Have you ever aligned your projection guns? That could be part cause of the fuzziness you describe. You'll probably find some kind of alignment choice buried down in the TV's menu structure.

I used the "Video Essentials" DVD calibration thing a while back. Most people will probably find that they have their brightness set too high, and probably their contrast as well. I can't remember where my set's sharpness was set at factory default, but I turned it all the way down per the recommendation. Bottom line, you have to adjust the set to what looks good to you. If turning your sharpness all the way down makes it look fuzzy, well, that's a silly thing to do just because someone told you that's the correct way to do it.

 

[WeeJavaDude]

The couch is right at 10' from the set.
I can adjust the sharpness up and down, yes. Others have suggested turning it all the way down, but then the picture looks very fuzzy and really looks horrible. I've got it adjusted to about 25% now.

I would suggest at a minimum purchasing a Calibration DVD and calibrating your svideo input using your DVD Player. I just installed a 32" Sony HD Ready Wega with my 721. At first the pictures looked very blocky and not very nice, after adjusting using AVIA it was night and day difference.

ISF calibration is going a step further. It is having someone come in and calibrate your TV with equipment. If you want to get the best out of your RPTV, this is recommended. Go to avsforums.com and you will see a lot of discussion on this.

The calibration you mentioned is not the same as calibrating using the DVD disk. You get a much more accurate picture and better PQ with the DVD disk.

I've not tried this. By power conditioning are you referring to a UPS? I have a 500 VA UPS on my computer that I could hook to the receiver and try.

No this was not what I was talking about. I power conditionar usually does not have UPS capabilities. A power conditionar cleans up dirty electricity. It claims to be able to improve PQ and audio. The one I have is a $200 Monster unit. Do some googles and you should be able to get an idea of what I am talking about.


From your response, I really think calibrating your set will help a lot. (both sets).

Hope this helps. CHeers.

 

[WeeJavaDude]

I run my sharpness all the way down. Have you ever aligned your projection guns? That could be part cause of the fuzziness you describe. You'll probably find some kind of alignment choice buried down in the TV's menu structure.

I used the "Video Essentials" DVD calibration thing a while back. Most people will probably find that they have their brightness set too high, and probably their contrast as well. I can't remember where my set's sharpness was set at factory default, but I turned it all the way down per the recommendation. Bottom line, you have to adjust the set to what looks good to you. If turning your sharpness all the way down makes it look fuzzy, well, that's a silly thing to do just because someone told you that's the correct way to do it.

The DVD calibration disk give you a test pattern to set your sharpness. You start at the bottom and then work your way up. I think TV calibration is essential in improving PQ.

 

[SimpleSimon]

... I power conditionar usually does not have UPS capabilities. A power conditionar cleans up dirty electricity. It claims to be able to improve PQ and audio. The one I have is a $200 Monster unit. Do some googles and you should be able to get an idea of what I am talking about.

Most (almost all?) modern UPS boxes that are above the "throwaway" level also act as power conditioners - at least to the point of noise-blocking and sag/surge protection.