OTA - Almost - Will a professional survey help?

[bhelms]

Howdy, guys! (Gals too, if you're reading!) The title says most of it. I can get a couple of OTA subs occassionally, once long enough to map them down on both my 811 and the ATSC tuner in the TV (which was a bit better). So I'm contemplating the antenna upgrade. I'm sure I can do an installation myself, but before I do I would like to get a professional to do at least some type of site survey. I'm in central PA, 24 and 55 miles from the towers I'm trying to hit. In a stroke of luck, they're almost exactly in line to my location, and the site at 24 mi. has multiple ATSC frequencies being broadcast, all UHF from 23 to 32.

Anybody have some experience with this? What am I asking the professional to do? Those of you who actually do this kind of work, what is your opinion? I might even purchase a system from an installer in whom I develop some level of trust, but I would want to at least "assist" with the installation, for my own education and because I like doing this kind of stuff with only a rare opportunity to do so.

Final question - the tower at 55 miles is Ch. 6 NBC. I can get their NTSC signal marginally (have been for years) but I don't hold much hope getting the subs on 34. (These did not map in my earlier "success".) Would this in any way qualify me to get NBC distant HD from E*? I'm already buying the LiLs (including 6 in SD) and "ala carte" NBC NY (SD only). Will a survey allow me to get the waiver I expect I'll need to qualify for the HD feed from NY (WNBC-DT) which I believe is on 61.5 (E* 6302)? I'm already receiving that sat.

TIA and BRgds...

 

[Hall]

It's certainly possible, under certain conditions, to pick up OTA signals at 55 miles or more. Obviously flat terrain helps, as does a large antenna, mounted up high.

As for qualifying for distant HD from Dish, they first go by coverage maps and if your local NBC says you're within their area, Dish won't give them to you. You then say that you can't pick up their signal (not sure at what cost it's determined that you can't easily receive their signal) and I believe you file for a waiver .... which the local station will deny. Finally, you attempt to "appeal" their denial. I'm not sure what happens next, whether the station has to come to your location and *prove* the signal can be rec'd or if you have to prove that it can't be rec'd. You might just decide it ain't all worth it...

 

[StevenD]

I had a professional come out when I first decided to install my antenna. I had a 110" antenna 26 feet up in the air and I was constantly getting dropouts on all channels, and I coudlnt pick up two channels at all. He came out and did a survey. He tweeked the direction of my antenna and then tracked down a bad barrel connector. I popped in another barrel connector and then all my stations came in crystal clear (well, except for WFAA, but thats their fault).

It was the best $50 I ever spent.

 

[Tower Guy]

I had a professional come out when I first decided to install my antenna. I had a 110" antenna 26 feet up in the air and I was constantly getting dropouts on all channels, and I coudlnt pick up two channels at all. He came out and did a survey. He tweeked the direction of my antenna and then tracked down a bad barrel connector. I popped in another barrel connector and then all my stations came in crystal clear (well, except for WFAA, but thats their fault).

It was the best $50 I ever spent.

Is your antenna designed to receive both VHF and UHF? WFAA-DT was assigned VHF by the FCC. They are at full power. If you can get the other DTV stations from Dallas, there's no reason that you can't get WFAA. If you really don't receive WFAA I doubt that it's their fault.

 

[Tower Guy]

Howdy, guys!
Anybody have some experience with this? What am I asking the professional to do? Those of you who actually do this kind of work, what is your opinion? I might even purchase a system from an installer in whom I develop some level of trust, but I would want to at least "assist" with the installation, for my own education and because I like doing this kind of stuff with only a rare opportunity to do so.

TIA and BRgds...

There's plenty of advice here. Some additional information is needed. Please go to www.antennaweb.org and enter your street address and zip code. Click enter, and see the results. Click on the "Digital only" box, then cut and paste the results back here.

 

[StevenD]

Is your antenna designed to receive both VHF and UHF? WFAA-DT was assigned VHF by the FCC. They are at full power. If you can get the other DTV stations from Dallas, there's no reason that you can't get WFAA. If you really don't receive WFAA I doubt that it's their fault.

Of course my antenna is for VHF and UHF. I pick up every single channel perfectly, but WFAA drops out a lot.

Everybody I know that has an ATSC tuner says they have dropouts on WFAA-DT.

 

[bhelms]

There's plenty of advice here. Some additional information is needed. Please go to www.antennaweb.org and enter your street address and zip code. Click enter, and see the results. Click on the "Digital only" box, then cut and paste the results back here.

Tks for the replies, folks, and sorry for the delay getting back to you Tower Guy! I've used antennaweb as a start and learned a lot about what's supposedly available. Here's what you specifically requested:

* violet - uhf WATM-DT 23.1 ABC ALTOONA PA 246° 24.4 24

But this is out-of date, or something. First, I do get the WPSU PBS Clearfield subs virtual 3.1, 3.2, 3.3 (actually Ch 15, I believe) from 331 deg. all the time and pretty much regardless of where the antenna is pointed! (Their tower is 32 mi. away, per antenna web.) It's a strong signal, 75%+ most of the time, few drop-outs. Unfortunatley, the HD channel has had little content of interest to me, tho' I do like a lot of PBS shows, notably Nova and Frontline. (Are they in HD yet?)

And there are also 23.2 (WATM-DT, SD format of 23.1) and 23.3 (WWCP-DT Fox - owned by the same company but still only SD). I also got WTAJ-DT CBS on 10.2, (still SD only, actual ch 32) but only briefly. These are all still "mapped" in my 811 but none are working currently. All towers are at the same bearing at about 24 mi. (24.1 - 24.4) per antennaweb. There is also WKBS ch 47 (with 47.1, actual ch 46) at that same location; I don't get either of those OTA. And there are also a couple of network repeaters at higher freqs; I never looked for either. You can see most of this with the zip 16877, but the bearings and mileages will be slightly different.

WJAC NBC Johnstown (as I mentioned before) at about 248 deg and 55 mi. is marginally received in analog on channel 6 but I cannot resolve their 2 digitals on ch 34 at all.

Hope this leads to some additional thoughts, hints, etc. and I thank everyone again for their consideration of my situation. I'm beginning to think that after 18 years aloft my B-T amp tanked just after I briefly had the original ATSC OTA success, but other ideas are welcome...!

PS - I guess this information pretty well triangulates all you terriorists out there directly to my property! Please make sure any bombs you send my way are verbal only!

 

[Tower Guy]

Of course my antenna is for VHF and UHF. I pick up every single channel perfectly, but WFAA drops out a lot.

Everybody I know that has an ATSC tuner says they have dropouts on WFAA-DT.

The statement "I pick up every channel perfectly, but WFAA drops out alot" does not prove that you have the correct antenna. In fact, it suggests that you have a UHF only antenna. It may also be true that everyone that you know bought the wrong antenna.

 

[Tower Guy]

* violet - uhf WATM-DT 23.1 ABC ALTOONA PA 246° 24.4 24

Antennaweb isn't much help at your house. Try this site instead;

http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp

Enter your location as Latitude 40.77 Longitude -78.07; Range 60 miles

Channels 23.2 & 23.3 are subchannels of 23.1. They are all the same bit stream.

Note that all the stations have their antennas aimed toward you. This is good.

I believe that terrain and distance are your issues, not your receiving system. Yet, your only hope to get the missing channels is to upgrade your antenna system. A highly rated antenna is ther Channnel Master 4228. A strong preamp is the 7777. Even then, it may not work.

The signals that come over the mountaintop might be helped slightly if you titled the antenna up toward the ridge.

Another experimenter in the same situation as you tried this scheme:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/16bay.html

Good Luck

 

[StevenD]

The statement "I pick up every channel perfectly, but WFAA drops out alot" does not prove that you have the correct antenna. In fact, it suggests that you have a UHF only antenna. It may also be true that everyone that you know bought the wrong antenna.

Ok...here's the antenna that I have: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103086
Radio Shack says it does UHF and VHF, but I suppose they could be wrong.

Don't ya think that the professional that I hired to come out would have noticed that I only had a UHF antenna? I would imagine that would have been the first thing he told me. And yes, I'm sure that everyone of my friends is an idiot and purchased an UHF-only antenna as well.

 

[Tower Guy]

Ok...here's the antenna that I have: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103086
Radio Shack says it does UHF and VHF, but I suppose they could be wrong.

Don't ya think that the professional that I hired to come out would have noticed that I only had a UHF antenna? I would imagine that would have been the first thing he told me. And yes, I'm sure that everyone of my friends is an idiot and purchased an UHF-only antenna as well.

OK, now I'm convinced that you have the right antenna. Yet, the comment that lack of reception was WFAA's fault does indicate a that something else is wrong at your house and your friends houses. WFAA's DTV signal is so strong that they knocked out all the heart monitors in the hospital in 1998 when they signed on their DTV transmitter.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3169/is_n10_v38/ai_20508826

 

[Cokeswigga]

One thing that I noticed, when I upgraded from the 811 the 622, I improved reception on all my OTA channels. But lost all the analog (no analog OTA tuner on the 622)

So it may not be your antenna.

 

[StevenD]

OK, now I'm convinced that you have the right antenna. Yet, the comment that lack of reception was WFAA's fault does indicate a that something else is wrong at your house and your friends houses. WFAA's DTV signal is so strong that they knocked out all the heart monitors in the hospital in 1998 when they signed on their DTV transmitter.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3169/is_n10_v38/ai_20508826

You could spit on that hospital from their tower its so close. Also, I do believe they are using a different transmitter now.

Anyhow, I dont know anybody north of I-635 that can pick up WFAA-DT without dropouts. WFAA claims that their signal covers their analog area, but I just dont see how that is possible.

 

[Tower Guy]

You could spit on that hospital from their tower its so close. Also, I do believe they are using a different transmitter now.

Anyhow, I dont know anybody north of I-635 that can pick up WFAA-DT without dropouts. WFAA claims that their signal covers their analog area, but I just dont see how that is possible.

Interesting. Here's a short list of things that could be causing the problem.

Interference on channel 9 in your area.
A undocumented null in the WFAA-DT antenna pattern.
Interference from the analog channel 8 transmitter into the channel 9 DTV transmitter.
Poor linearity of the WFAA DTV transmitter.
Multipath on channel 9 that originates on the transmitter tower.
Errors in the WFAA bitstream.
A few stations have noticed a dropout on some TV sets whenever the linearity corrector in the exciter changed values. (Apex) A software upgrade fixes the problem.

The only one of those issues that you can verify yourself is interference. If you look at channel 8 analog do you see any obvious problems? If so, look at this for help.
http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/tvibook.html

Feel free to email this to WFAA.

 

[bhelms]

Thanks, Tower Guy!

Antennaweb isn't much help at your house. Try this site instead;

http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp

Enter your location as Latitude 40.77 Longitude -78.07; Range 60 miles

Channels 23.2 & 23.3 are subchannels of 23.1. They are all the same bit stream.
.....

Good Luck

Thanks for the URL. That site pretty much confirmed what I already know and provided some additional information. I have considered both the 4228 (with some concern about its weight and possible high wind loading vs. a yagi) and the 7777 (specs. out similar to my existing Blonder-Tongue Suburban 3 Plus but with a lower noise figure) and will probably make the investment even with a potential for no improvement.

I'll report back to this forum as soon as I have some results.

Tks again to all who replied.

 

[StevenD]

Interesting. Here's a short list of things that could be causing the problem.

Interference on channel 9 in your area.
A undocumented null in the WFAA-DT antenna pattern.
Interference from the analog channel 8 transmitter into the channel 9 DTV transmitter.
Poor linearity of the WFAA DTV transmitter.
Multipath on channel 9 that originates on the transmitter tower.
Errors in the WFAA bitstream.
A few stations have noticed a dropout on some TV sets whenever the linearity corrector in the exciter changed values. (Apex) A software upgrade fixes the problem.

The only one of those issues that you can verify yourself is interference. If you look at channel 8 analog do you see any obvious problems? If so, look at this for help.
http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/tvibook.html

Feel free to email this to WFAA.

Apparently, Im not the only one:

http://www.satelliteguys.us/showpost.php?p=509915&postcount=49

 

[Tower Guy]

Dropouts every minute or two is the exact symptom experienced by some receivers when the station is using an APEX exciter with older software.

 

[Mike0616]

OK, now I'm convinced that you have the right antenna. Yet, the comment that lack of reception was WFAA's fault does indicate a that something else is wrong at your house and your friends houses. WFAA's DTV signal is so strong that they knocked out all the heart monitors in the hospital in 1998 when they signed on their DTV transmitter.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3169/is_n10_v38/ai_20508826

That article says that the hospital was using tv broadcast channel 9 as the frequency for its radio based telemetry (heart monitoring) system. That means absolutely NOTHING about strength of signal to anywhere other than the hospital's location and it would not have to be very strong to have interfered with that hardware.

Oh, well, nice try!

 

[pajer]

I am pretty much the same situation as bhelms above.

i input my coordinates and here is what i got:
wpsx 15 11 miles 182 deg.
watm 24 49 miles 173 deg.
wtaj 32 49 miles 173 deg.
wjac 34 70 miles 197 deg.
wwcp 29 85 miles 198 deg

any thoughts on what i might need to get these ota with my dish 622 or am i just too far to even try?