'Lectro cars and electric utilities

[denisincalif]

When hydrogen is used in a fuel cell, or even burned, the result is water and very little else. Little or no CO2. It's about as clean as you could hope for.

Solar has it's appeal, but storage costs are excessive. Unless that drawback is addressed, it's use will be limited. And square miles of arrays, with different reflectivity than the land beneath, and the shading effect on that land, will definitely have environmental consequences. Nothing if free, nothing is pure.

I wasn't talking about the burning of hydrogen in the fuel cell. I was talking about the burning of other fuels necessary to separate the hydrogen so it can be used as fuel.

No one thinks there are ZERO consequences to massive use of solar energy. The human population is so huge that nothing we do can be totally harmless. But solar power has far less of a negative impact on the environment than any other sufficient energy source. (Wind and geothermal are also very clean, but completely insufficient to handle the world's energy needs.)

Addressing the costs of storage of power generated by solar plants would be part of the big R&D activity I am advocating. If all the problems of solar power didn't exist, then we would all be using solar power today. We are not, because there are problems. I am saying that the problems solar has are far less difficult to solve, and have much bigger payoff, than for any other energy source.

 

[jayn_j]

BTW- I no longer see graph bars at the top of this page, just the numbers. Does everyone else see them? Is it just me?

Just you ( I see them)

 

[navychop]

I'm using FF3.0.1. You?

 

[jayn_j]

I wasn't talking about the burning of hydrogen in the fuel cell. I was talking about the burning of other fuels necessary to separate the hydrogen so it can be used as fuel.

No one thinks there are ZERO consequences to massive use of solar energy. The human population is so huge that nothing we do can be totally harmless. But solar power has far less of a negative impact on the environment than any other sufficient energy source. (Wind and geothermal are also very clean, but completely insufficient to handle the world's energy needs.)

Addressing the costs of storage of power generated by solar plants would be part of the big R&D activity I am advocating. If all the problems of solar power didn't exist, then we would all be using solar power today. We are not, because there are problems. I am saying that the problems solar has are far less difficult to solve, and have much bigger payoff, than for any other energy source.

One problem is that nobody has any idea how big the enviromental effects would be. For example, converting a large amount of solar gain in Death Valley into electricity would probably cool off the desert and create a low pressure zone that would change wind patterns. This could cause LA (or Phoenix, or Denver) to become wetter, or possibly drier. However, it may end up having no effect at all. We just don't understand climate well enough to tell, except in hindsight.

Solar may very well be the answer, but I would guess it is better addressed by a distributed network of rooftop collectors throughout the sub belt, or perhaps across the whole US. The net effect would then be cooler houses that don't need as much energy to function.

 

[jayn_j]

I'm using FF3.0.1. You?

IE-6 here.

 

[Bobby]

I'm seeing the graphs with FF 3.0.1

 

[TNGTony]

Huh? Silicone? Why do you think you need a rubbery polymer to create Hydrogen?

SNIP... stopped reading the message there since the rest of the message is likely just as misguided.

Where do we get the electricity to extract hydrogen from water?
If we use coal/nukes to make the electricity to extract the hydrogen it doesn't make ecological sense.
What are solar cells made from?

There is your answer!

See ya
Tony

 

[denisincalif]

One problem is that nobody has any idea how big the enviromental effects would be. For example, converting a large amount of solar gain in Death Valley into electricity would probably cool off the desert and create a low pressure zone that would change wind patterns. This could cause LA (or Phoenix, or Denver) to become wetter, or possibly drier. However, it may end up having no effect at all. We just don't understand climate well enough to tell, except in hindsight.

Solar may very well be the answer, but I would guess it is better addressed by a distributed network of rooftop collectors throughout the sub belt, or perhaps across the whole US. The net effect would then be cooler houses that don't need as much energy to function.

Distributed rooftop collectors involve the manufacture of a huge number of solar cells. Some of the raw materials for these are in limited supply and are expensive (energy-wise) to obtain. Also, in many parts of the country, there is not enough sunshine for rooftop collectors to pay for themselves.

The solar power I am hoping for will be generated in deserts of the Southwest using mirrors to concentrate sunlight which is used to heat a liquid or some molten material. Then that heat is used (eventually) to run turbines. Everything is completely recirculated so that, once set up, there are no consumables. And the hot material is something cheap and abundant. Such generating plants actually exist today, but they are small "demo" units, not economically viable. That is why I keep repeating myself that the main problem with solar power today is the lack of an infrastructure. There are no big technological problems left to solve, although improvements are certainly possible and would be helpful. All that is needed is a commitment to base our economy on solar power and (of course) time.

As for your statements about the possible climate impacts of shading a large part of the desert, I agree that climate (and weather) is not well understood. But I believe you are worrying too much about that issue. The percentage of land needed for solar power generation for the entire country is actually quite small. I really don't think such generating plants would have a measurable impact on local climate.

 

[navychop]

Well, at home I'm also on FF3.0.1 and I see the bars. Must be something quirky about my machine at work.

 

[navychop]

CNN has an article today about a compressed air car getting 106 mpg, costing less than $18,000 and on the U.S. market by 2010. I think it was next to an article about how hard politicians work for us.

The article kinda glossed over the energy used to compress that air.

 

[snathanb]

They are drilling around here now on something called the Barnett Shale. They say it has enough natural gas to power the entire country for many many years to come.

At least that's what the commercials Chesapeake keeps spamming the DFW market with every half hour have to say about it.

From hearing them talk the Barnett Shale will also mow your yard, do your taxes, take the dog out for a walk, and keep your daughters from getting pregnant.

 

[navychop]

So all we have to do is massively expand the NG pipelines in the country? Or is that really a limiting factor? Like some anti-wind turbine types keep saying where there's wind, there's no electrical distribution lines?

 

[vegassatellite]

1, 2, 5, and maybe 4 and definitely the last but I dont see number 3 being anything more than a curiosity blip at most.

Suit yourself, but you can take delivery on a compressed air-powered car in 2010 here in the USA. Reservations being taken in 2009.

Zero Pollution Motors - Air Car

It's a hybrid fuel/air-powered car
Price <$18,000
MPG 106 combined
Range 800+ miles
Oil change interval every 31,000 miles
Max speed 96 mph
Seats 6
Engine 6 cylinder
Runs solely on air at speeds under 35mph

 

[snathanb]

Suit yourself, but you can take delivery on a compressed air-powered car in 2010 here in the USA. Reservations being taken in 2009.

Zero Pollution Motors - Air Car

It's a hybrid fuel/air-powered car
Price <$18,000
MPG 106 combined
Range 800+ miles
Oil change interval every 31,000 miles
Max speed 96 mph
Seats 6
Engine 6 cylinder
Runs solely on air at speeds under 35mph

Color me a skeptic on this one, until they actually start producing these. While this company is really skilled in manufacturing press releases, people smarter than me have analyzed the design and called shenanigans on the specs.