Hitting 119/129 with one dish?

[CowboyDren]

This is basically a repost, and I apologize...

Is it possible/practical/advisable to put the DP+ in the old location, aim it between 119 and 129, and put a plain single LNB in the [current] location aiming at 110? OR could I daisy chain two DP+ LNBs together, with one in the old location peaked on 129?

That post has a PDF document with a drawing that shows my real estate lot and part of my problem. There used to be a D300 attached to my house, which could spot 119, but not 110 (tree in the way). It may be able to spot 129, but I'm not sure. The current dish (500) spots 110 and 119 okay, but probably can't get 129 (additional tree problem).

Can I move the 500 back to the house, use the 110 LNB to hit 119 and the 119 LNB to hit 129? This would require a dedicated dish to hit 110, but I'm okay with that, if the rest of the math is good.

The easy fix seems to be a dedicated dish for 61.5, but I can't get Kansas City, MO local HD, and I'd kind of like to.

 

[webbydude]

It should...and *ahem* does work. A lot of installers...me included...have over the years accidentally hit 119/129 vs. 110/119. You'll just need to drop the elevation by about 3 degrees and move the azimuth west by about 8 or 9 degrees. Like you said, as long as you either (a) don't mind losing 110 or (b) having a dedicated dish for it then you should be in fine shape.

 

[CowboyDren]

So, when the weather clears up in KC, I need to swivel my current location until I hit 119 again, and check 129. If that succeeds, then I have no problems getting a 1000-style system installed. If that doesn't work, then I need to start playing with a new dish at the old location...which is going to suck.

I can run 110W from a single dish into the 119/129 LNBF, and from that LNBF to the house, yeah? Would you mind looking at the PDF in that old post to check my math?

 

[mdwatt]

Keep in mind that the 129 sits lower than the 119, and the 110 sits higher than the 119. Sometimes 129 is hard to hit due to trees and other obstructions. Where you are in KS though, you should be ok. Here in southern Ohio, 129 only sits at 24 degrees elevation.

 

[rthomp03]

Just a thought, but wouldn't he want to hit 129 first and peak for it since most of the transponders are weaker than 119? Or isn't there that much loss with the extra 1 deg of spacing?

 

[CowboyDren]

One more quick question; I used GeoSatFinder.com to find all satellites and help in spotting. What's the difference between "Dish Elevation" and what I think is called, "Look Angle?" If I sight 129W, for example, if I set a protractor to 32.5° over the horizon, is that actually the spot in the sky where 129W sits?

And what is this "LNBF Rotation" value?

 

[highdefjeff]

Elevations given for satellites are where they are in the sky from your location.

This may help:

What does a dish "see"?

 

[SmityWhity]

Kansas City, MO -- Zip Code = 64106 -- Lat/Long = 39.104N/94.573W or 39.1N/94.6W

Dish 500 for 110/119: (Dish is aimed at orbital location 114.5W)
- SK = 112
- EL = 40
- AZ = 205

Dish 500 for 119/129: (Dish is aimed at orbital location 123.0W)
- SK = 120
- EL = 36
- AZ = 220

Setting Skew:
- +/- 0 degrees is 90 on the Dish 500
- +22 tilt would be 90 + 22 = 112 on Dish 500
- +30 tilt would be 90 + 30 = 120 on Dish 500
- -22 tilt would be 90 - 22 = 68 on Dish 500
- -30 tilt would be 90 - 30 = 60 on Dish 500

It has been awhile, but I think the above calculations are close enough.

 

[SmityWhity]

Since you are good with a compass and protractor, you may want to look at your lot from a satellite/ariel photo at Google Maps and see what looks like the best location for the dish.
Try this link and zoom in to your lot. Google Maps

I don't think there is much magnetic deviation where you are, so 180 degrees should be from the center of the picture to the bottom.

As Highdefjeff was showing, the signal actually comes in from about 20 degrees above the Dish 500; so if it looks like it is pointing to a tree, the dish may still be high enough to have a line of sight above the trees or other obstructions.

 

[CowboyDren]

Well, I had an installer out yesterday to install my $50 ViP-722 and see about setting up HD service. He mentioned that a DP44 switch would be the most elegant solution for me, but his boss wouldn't authorize one for fewer than 4 orbitals. Not having any other switches on his truck, the network layout is like so:

Roof-mounted D500 (single LNB) -> 170' cable -> Pole-mounted D500 (DP Twin) -> 150' cable - ViP-722

It's ugly, and there's cable all over my lawn, but it's effective. I get high 50s on 110 and 119 with low 40s on 129. If I had the proper I-bracket to put that single LNB in the center of my house-mounted D500, I could get better signal. I'm sure that I could swap LNBs, split 119/129 on the D500 on the roof, and dedicate the D500 in the yard to 110, which would shorten my cable runs significantly, but I like the fact that I have a (nearly) whole 20" dish pointing at 129W.

Could I use a DP34 instead of the 170' cable run in my back yard? Can I run the DP Twin's single cable into one input on a DP34, run the 129 wing LNB into another input, and send a single output to my 722? Or is there a balance problem? I'd have 150' from the DPP Twin to the DP34, 40' or so from the 129 single, and 6' or so from the switch to the receiver. I'm really interested in the JVI 35-DN34 with antenna input...

 

[osu1991]

A dp34 requires 2 outputs to the receiver.

 

[SmityWhity]

I'm not sure if you would end up with better signals or not. However, if you are thinking about trying to eliminate some of that 320 feet of cable between the further LNBF and the 722, keep this in mind.

Legacy = Legacy
DP = DishPro, such as, DP Single LNBF, DP Dual LNBF, DP Twin LNBF, DP34 Switch
DPP = DishPro Plus, such as , DPP Twin LNBF, DPP44 Switch,

- Legacy receivers uses a change in voltage to make the legacy LNBF shift polarity.
- DishPro uses DiSEqC commands with a 22KHz tone riding on 19 volts and as low as about 10 volts, and sends both polarities at the same time by bandstacking them.
- DishPro Plus is the same as DishPro except, a dual tuner receiver can receive 2 satellite signals at one time on one cable, i.e., one sat signal for each tuner.

So it sounds like you have a DP Dual LNBF on one dish, and a DP Plus Twin on the other dish. That DP Plus Twin allows you to run a single cable to your 722 Dual Tuner Receiver.

As OSU1992 said, if you put the DP34 in the mix, you may decrease cable distance between each end, but you will need to run 2 cables from the DP34 to the 722 which may require more total cable (but may be less cable out in the open).

However, if you were to put a DPP44 in the mix, then you would only need to run 1 cable from the DPP44 to the 722.

Please note the correct use of DP and DPP which makes a big difference.

 

[CowboyDren]

Thank you for the clarification. I was asking about the DP34 because of the JVI box, which isn't that big of a deal. It would just be nice for the main switch to also integrate an antenna signal, which the DPP44 doesn't do. That and the expense; a DPP44 is twice to three times the cost of a genuine DP34.

With a DP34, would I need to run two cables from my DPP Twin LNBF to the switch, or is it's integrated switch compatible? I'd like to put the switch 6' away from the receiver, and bring the two/three LNBF signals as directly as possible from their respective dishes to the switch.

Would I need extra loops of cable to create balance if I were to use a DP34, or is the only caveat 2*6' lengths of cable from the switch to the receiver?

 

[SmityWhity]

Thank you for the clarification. I was asking about the DP34 because of the JVI box, which isn't that big of a deal. It would just be nice for the main switch to also integrate an antenna signal, which the DPP44 doesn't do. That and the expense; a DPP44 is twice to three times the cost of a genuine DP34.

With 2 diplexers you could insert a VHF/UHF/Cable signal onto a coax cable with a satellite signal, and then separate the VHF/UHF/Cable signal near the receiver. I think you should be able to pick up a couple of diplexers for less than $15. You're right, the DPP44 is not cheap, but if you were to use one, ask the forum first, because I believe the diplexer cannot be between he Power Inserter and Receiver Port 1.

With a DP34, would I need to run two cables from my DPP Twin LNBF to the switch, or is it's integrated switch compatible? I'd like to put the switch 6' away from the receiver, and bring the two/three LNBF signals as directly as possible from their respective dishes to the switch.

DishPro Plus switches currently are not cascadable, except for when configuring 5 satellite locations by using a DPP44 with 1 DP21 per tuner/receiver. So yes you would need to run 2 cables from the DPP Twin LNBF outputs to the DP34 Input 1 and Input 2. I believe Sat 119 will default to Port 1. This will disable the switch inside the DPP Twin. Then you will need to run the 3rd cable to Port 3 on the DP34.

Disclaimer:
You will find some debate on this forum on if the DPP Twin LNBF is compatible or not with the DP34, or even the DPP44. In either case, it is a waste of money and parts since a DP Twin is cheaper. However, people say it will work, I've read a Dish publication where it says you need a Power Inserter or you will need at least 1 DishPro receiver connected at all times, I've read a more recently Dish pub where it says do not use the two, and someone said they have problems with those setups.

So maybe you should look at swapping the DPP Twin with a DP Twin.

Would I need extra loops of cable to create balance if I were to use a DP34, or is the only caveat 2*6' lengths of cable from the switch to the receiver?

Except for maybe a drip loop for the rain and snow, I don't think a loop will make any difference, that usually applies to transmitters.

A coax between a transmitter and antenna should be as short as possible, as well as an exact length for the specific frequency you are transmitting on, which is usually not possible. In cases where you have extra cable, you would coil it in a certain size, but I think I forgot that formula 43 years ago.
I do (almost) remember in the early 90's of a requirement to coil excess Cat 5 cable in a certain diameter - I think it was somewhere around 5 or 6 inches.

 

[Stargazer]

Just a thought, but wouldn't he want to hit 129 first and peak for it since most of the transponders are weaker than 119? Or isn't there that much loss with the extra 1 deg of spacing?

You would want to peak 119 first so that you will be more likely to tune 129 in then peak for 129 since it does have weaker signal. I asked someone if their locals went out first and they said that their locals were the last channels to go out which was odd since I thought they would be the first to go out during a storm.