Help, I'm being repressed!(question for techs)

[Roadwarrior]

Ok, I'm an installer in the Missouri area, have been for almost 2 years.
I got into this business to make money, but guess what? I'm not! True, my paychecks are a bit larger than when I was 9-5ing it, but my expenses are through the roof. Gas prices...well, you know. the cost of copper has gone up considerably since I started and my manager would have me believe that I am not to charge for wall fishing or pole mounts. My contract stated nothing about these things. My company does not reimburse us or pay us extra for any of this, yet if we refuse to do it, or try and charge the customer, we run the risk of getting fired. If we are lucky enough to keep our job, we're punished( i.e. being graced with 200 mile round trip routes, or when work is slow, no routes at all). I've spoken with older, more experienced techs about this, and they say they've never worked for so little. unfortunately there are no other installer gigs in this area. My question is, how many sub-contractors are out there and do any of you do these things for free? A pole and a bag of concrete costs me around 15 bucks, and living in the Ozarks area, I've done up to 3 pole mounts in one day. Sometimes I have to mount one for a measly service call. Now I occasionally get side jobs and make some cash for stuff like this, but I'm thinking that I should at the very least charge enough to make my money back on the pole and concrete, and should not be expected to fish a wall for free under any circumstances. Help me out if you could, let me know if I'm totally wrong in my thinking or if maybe I'm being sc***ed over, and is there anything I could do about it.

Thanks.


Also, this doesnt look like the proper forum for this either, I see alot of customer posts. Where should I go for this sort of stuff?

 

[SmityWhity]

I don't know if there is another forum/sub-forum or not, but I've seen other posts from installers. However, from someone that's not a paid installer, but a customer, here are my thoughts.

It's nice to see that there is a company that is willing to go the extra mile (or maybe 2) for the customer, and it sounds like they ensure it happens.

However, an employer should not expect an employee to directly pay the employer's bills and costs of doing business. But as a sub-contractor, you are often running your own business, and with some jobs you may net more than others. It doesn't sound like the contract provides for you to charge either the customer or the primary contractor extra when doing more than the minimally required parts and labor to do the job.

If not, then maybe it's time to re-negotiate the contract to include items:
...Wall fishing, or maybe when wall fishing exceeds a length of time,
...non-standard parts, such as Poles and Cement,
...mileage, when miles per job exceed x amount each job, and/or per week,
...Complete Parts & Labor as compensation for re-doing a job that was incorrectly done by a previous installer.
...etc...
However, you need to be careful, you may get more for the above, but then may get less for routine jobs!

But probably you should start considering establishing your own business as a primary contractor, especially if you are getting all of the crappy jobs. May be more headaches, but something to consider.

 

[dirkleearm]

I have worked for DNS and Ironwood (DTV) for about 6mo total. It took me that long to realize it was a joke!
I now have worked for over 5 years as a subcontractor and it has been good, but with the increasing costs it's getting "not so good" either. I do a lot of custom work which helps a lot. But over the last 5 years Dish actually pays the retailer less now then before. I still make the same 75 - single, 25 - additional tuners, 125 for Direcway. If my work was all close it would be fine, but have to travel 150 - 250 miles often which for 1 or 2 jobs is not helping.

Also I charge for poles, telephone, wall fishing etc, You better too if you want to:

I suggest calling a few local retailers and see if you can sub for them. But believe me their are differences so try to find one or two who is honest and treats you and the customer fairly.

 

[boba]

I would suggest changing employment probably to a different field of employment, it isn't going to get better, in fact cable might be a better opportunity more growth is forcast for them than satellite.

 

[bhelms]

I have never installed sat. systems for a living but I have done most of my own work and that of others at cost. I did however work for a time as an installer in the security business, and many of the same complaints apply in that business.

There's absolutely no question that these are very tough times for folks in these businesses, and frankly I don't see it getting any better overall any time soon. I don't know the answer for the bigger picture. I expect that as more and more installers can't make a decent living anymore they will move on and normal market dynamics may eventually help balance it out, i.e., supply and demand will help push the situation more favorably toward those who are supplying (increased revenue for the same work) but that's a real stretch. Unfortunately for every competent installer who decides to leave the business there will be one or more less qualified individuals willing to take their place for less money, and the problem won't correct itself until that situation changes.

In your case you have a decision to make. You can stick it out for as long as possible and hope things change for the better, but that's unlikely. Or you can take some risk, make an investment in yourself and your future and try to get out of the rut.

Are you willing to go into business for yourself (subcontract only) and roll the dice a bit in setting your own terms and conditions? There are other installers in this forum that have done just that. With the proper experience, credentials (certifications), and reputation they can command a higher wage for higher quality work well done. In most cases this puts them into the specialty end of the business, the more difficult/challenging installations and/or custom work beyond basic installations. But that work will be more rewarding financially and personnaly in the longer term.

If you want to go this route you need to become wholly independent and make yourself available to local retailers, installers, other subcontractors, etc., who will call you in when your special level of services is warranted. You need to establish your rates for all extras, mileage, whatever, in advance. Of course if you are independent you have to cover all of your costs, fixed and variable, and become very business-savvy. You will have a lot of lean times until you establish yourself, so be prepared to have another job that will pay the rent, etc. in the meantime until you can build your business back to a profitable full-time level. Maybe you can add-on other value-added related services (highly recommended!) like OTA antennas, HT, data, security, etc. That way you can specialize even more and "bundle" your services. (How about handling ALL the low-voltage system installations in new home builds?)

I know this sounds almost impossible, but frankly with the direction the installation business is headed it is not likely to get any better. Those who find a way to get out from under the E* and D* pressures - or working for the larger independents who are also facing the same pressures - are the only ones who are likely to make a satisfactory career out of this business!

Good luck with it!

(PS - I saw the futility in the security business, finished my degree and entered a completely different line of work that pays a whole lot more. The guy I was working for eventially folded and went into another line as well.)

 

[ZandarKoad]

Just a bit of feedback:

I subcontract for a retailer as well, and the retailer pays for the cost of all cement and poles used. I don't get EXTRA for the mount, but at least I get compensated for the gear.

On average, 19 out of 20 times my daily route is VERY close to my home (I live in Milwaukee, WI). But then again, I moved into the city to be closer to the routes I was getting... Sometimes I have to drive an hour one way to get to a job, but its rare. No, I don't get compensated for that (unless the retailer screwed up, and it's his fault I'm driving so far, or he wants me to do some special errand...).

So yeah, call around. Its really hard to find these other retailers sometimes, but they DO exist. Call Dish and ask for a list of local retailers. Then open the phonebook or start googling. It is hard...

And don't bother with those contractors who only let you do the work that you generate through sales. If you can install AND sell so well that you can generate 1-2 jobs a day for yourself, then you 100% should go into business as a retailer for your self.

 

[Roadwarrior]

Thanks guys. I think you're right. With my current company I am technically a sub-contractor, but they try to treat me like an employee. I realized a while back that I am in the business of customer service, and I have always taken pride in my work, no matter what I'm doing. This situation makes it very difficult to do that. I am very willing to expand and specialize, however, I would need to be, at the very least, SBCA certified. This is something the company who trained me(*laugh*) does not see as a necessary requirement for their installers. So, it's up to me to take the class and the test. It's not offered around here, I'll probably have to go to Kansas City or somewhere, and I'm thinking that a level 2 and 3 certification will be necessary for what I want to do. This is costly, in time and money, but not totally unrealistic.

To all the customers out there who have had bad installation experiences, it's not always the installers fault. Sometimes they are just trying to make a living, and it seems the only way to do that these days is to deal in quantity, not quality. 6 shoddy installs a day pay much better than 2 or 3 good ones, and with that kind of money coming in, they can afford the chargebacks(35$ chargeback for RTTC's is the only consequence, I've never seen an installer fired for crappy work here.)

 

[rickaren]

As a sub-contractor at least all your out-of pocket receipts should be tax deductible and the mileage too, if I'm correct. This would at least lower or eliminate any taxes due. This would help and justify where you are now, until you make a change.

 

[lakebum431]

The tax deductible piece is exactly right, as long as you aren't being reimbursed for either. But make sure to keep receipts for your out of pocket (non reimbursed) expenses.

 

[srs913]

Bottom line is is that if your paying for the supplies out of your own pocket then you are legally able to charge the customer for the expenses no questions asked.

 

[diu.steve]

You can check into employment w/ Dish Network Service Corp. All equipment / tools / vans provided. The only gas you would have to worry about is what you use to get to the nearest office. You have three offices around you: Columbia, Rolla, Springfield. Ozark region is mainly covered by Columbia I believe. Rolla is probably next closest if you live in the southeastern portion of the ozarks.

 

[ZandarKoad]

If you are fast enough to do two or more four tuner (quality) installations a day I would say stick with the subcontracting though. By the hour work just ain't for those who actually enjoy working hard/fast/efficient.

I've heard dozens and dozens of stories (enough for me to believe they are true) from customers of installations taking ALL DAY: 8 + hours. I've done some pretty insane time consuming stuff, but nothing that comes even close to that. Even when I was green. Those had to be by-the-hour guys.

 

[Jared Twomey]

I don't know what area of missouri you are from, but if you are anywhere between St. Louis and Poplar Bluff... PM me. We are currently looking for an installer or two (I only work part-time now, and mainly do Wildblue now so i need a replacement)
We definately don't do wall fishes for free, and we provide all materials needed to do the install... wire, poles, ect...

 

[Tom Bombadil]

As a customer, if I wanted a pole mount, I would expect to pay for that.

Indeed, I have a pole mount. But I installed it myself. I never expected a Dish installer to do that for free.

 

[miguelaqui]

Bottom line is is that if your paying for the supplies out of your own pocket then you are legally able to charge the customer for the expenses no questions asked.

What's with that statement? A lot of sub-contractors have to buy everything.

As far as the wall-fishing. I started a thread about that a few months ago. Some say it's included, some say it's not.

Everyone agreed that wall-fishing is not included in the retail install. If you search my posts, you'll even find where someone scanned the paperwork and wall-fishing is not listed.

A pole mount is included.

You could always play dumb and say you can't do it.

If you think it's unfair...have you looked into contracting for a cable company?

 

[Roadwarrior]

Dish Network is an option. I would actually get a discount on my Dish bill and some pretty decent benefits too. The pay is laughable and the routes are pretty rough, from what I've seen, but its a decent job. I'm just not sure I want to be an employee again. I'm trying to move up.

St. Louis is a bit far for me Bird, I'm closer to the Arkansas border, but thanks anyway.

Contracting for cable would probably be a bit better, the local cable company wont hire contractors, but there are cable companies in the surrounding areas that contract out all the time, I'm actually checking into that.

concerning pole mounts, I would (do)gladly include that if it's the only way the job will go in, i.e. no line of sight from the house. But quite a few customers demand it regardless of line of sight. Customer preference is my main problem. They want special consideration but don't think they should have to pay extra. They are only paying 50$ for the install, should they really have the right to demand a custom install? *coughCHEAPSKATEScough*...

This is easily solved by finding another form of employment. I'm not stuck here, I just really enjoy this type of work. It's almost like a hobby that you get paid for.

I need to figure out how I'm going to expand my knowledge/training to all aspects of this business: Directway, any other sat internet, FTA installs, OTA, stuff like that. Somebody suggested that I diversify and thats an excellent idea, but how?

 

[Jared Twomey]

Everyone agreed that wall-fishing is not included in the retail install. If you search my posts, you'll even find where someone scanned the paperwork and wall-fishing is not listed.

that was me

Subcontracting can be a good line of work to be in, but you have to work for good people. Look around, there may be other retailers that are looking for contractors... if you are good at what you do you can almost always find someone to hire you. Look around for retailers selling Wildblue also... in this area we have been putting them in like crazy, they have went over very well. If you get desperate... the offer stands... we can always use good help up this way

 

[srs913]

What's with that statement? A lot of sub-contractors have to buy everything.

As far as the wall-fishing. I started a thread about that a few months ago. Some say it's included, some say it's not.

Everyone agreed that wall-fishing is not included in the retail install. If you search my posts, you'll even find where someone scanned the paperwork and wall-fishing is not listed.

A pole mount is included.

You could always play dumb and say you can't do it.

If you think it's unfair...have you looked into contracting for a cable company?

If your a sub and have to pay for the equipment used to install, then you have every right to charge the customer, if i was a sub and had to pay for poles and cement than you can bet your bottom dollar im charging the customer for the pole and cement.

 

[Jared Twomey]

If your a sub and have to pay for the equipment used to install, then you have every right to charge the customer, if i was a sub and had to pay for poles and cement than you can bet your bottom dollar im charging the customer for the pole and cement.

It would also depend on who you work for and what kind of arrangment you have worked out.

For example... we pay all of our installers $xx per install... flat fee for a basic install. We pay for everything but their tools... wire, connectors, ground blocks poles, concrete ect...

I have also seen installers that get paid more than our guys do on the install, but they also have to provide everything (wire, connectors, poles, ect) themselves

If it is something that is not included in a "basic install" (interpret how you will) then as a subcontractor you have every right to charge extra

 

[Roadwarrior]

birddoggy-

... if you are good at what you do you can almost always find someone to hire you. Look around for retailers selling Wildblue also... in this area we have been putting them in like crazy, they have went over very well. [/quote]



Well, 'good' is a relative term. I'm still learning every day. Just by reading some of these posts I've learned things that I was never taught in my "training". I'm eager to learn and I try to do the best job I can on installs, but I still make mistakes. I'm embarassed to say that I have no idea what Wild Blue is. I'm guessing it's Satellite internet. Is that all they do? Would I need a laptop to install those?