Getting the most out of 129W

[RedSavina]

Hey y'all!

I'm down here in South Texas, which is outside of the official footprint for 129W. I have a D1000.2 and a D500. I can get 129W on the D1000.2, but the "wobble" effect causes my signal to range from 0 to about 65 or so using the newly-calibrated signal meter on my ViP622. I have also used the D500 in the past with better results, but did get some macro-blocking - maybe due to a possibly obstructed view of the satellite at that time.

So I ordered a W-bracket today from Claude at DishStore.net (one of our Gold Sponsors). I plan to test the following two scenarios:

1. Using a DP Dual LNBF with an I-bracket on the D500, I intend to peak the dish and check signal strength readings with my ViP211.
2. Using a DP Dual LNBF in the center position of the W-bracket on the D1000.2, I intend to peak the dish and check signal strength readings with my ViP622.

I am trying to get a side-by-side live comparison (for each TP) to determine which dish provides the best reception of 129W at my location. Because of the "wobble" in 129W, I don't see how else I could get a decent comparison of the two dishes. If there are any antenna engineers in the house, please speak up - the mathematical approach would be so much easier!

If you have any input or other suggestions, please let me know! My hope is that I can get a usable signal - even when the "wobble" is at its worst. Now that SkyAngel is on its way out and the fish channel is gone, my reasons for choosing 61.5W over 129W are just about gone. By switching to 129W I will pick up my RSN (and perhaps some others ).

The W-bracket should arrive next week, so testing will probably be the following Saturday unless I need to *cough* call in sick or something.

Red
PS: Yes, I know a larger dish would help with 129W. The point of this exercise is to use existing Dish equipment with little or no additional investment.

 

[mdwatt]

If your signal is fluctuating over 65 points at a time then you have issues greater than "wobble" or whatever BS someone is feeding you. That indicates either a line of sight issue, or an unstable mount. Most likely line of sight. Getting 65 on 129 with a 622 is improbable. You'll be lucky to get 50 on the new meter, even in perfect conditions.

 

[WiCkeDuDe]

The dish 500 on 129 usually provides a better signal than the 1000.2. The Dish 1000's are a compromise since all 3 birds are on the same plane, you will get some compromise on at least on of the birds. Usually the 129 is peaked for this reason since 110 and 119 can give up some signal and be ok. I dont know what this wobble is you are referring to but if you are jumping 65 points of signal you have problems, most likely due to being out of the footprint. A D500 at 129 picks up maybe a few points over a 1000.2, its not going to make a huge jump. Point the D500 at 61.5 and you will be better off.

 

[RedSavina]

About the "wobble"

There have been many, many posts about this wobble effect!

From what I am seeing, there is not a 65 point swing. Rather, the signal varies by a few points. As I continue to watch the signal meter the signal will slowly drop off (fluctuating along the way) until 0. It will sit at zero for a few minutes and then slowly work its way back up again to the 60s. I haven't actually timed the cycle, but it is very consistent. Which is why I believe the descriptions of a wobble elsewhere on this board are accurate. In my case, by being outside the official footprint, my signal levels drop below the minimum acceptable level. I'm willing to wager that someone in, say Denver, would see the same behavior but in a tighter range.

As I said in the original post, I propose to use the D1000.2 as a single-focus dish by using only one LNBF in the center position of the W-bracket - the same way I will use the D500 as a single-focus dish using the I-bracket. My theory is that since the D1000.2 has a larger reflector than the D500 it should collect more signal and focus it to the primary (center) LNBF location, thus providing a better signal from 129W.

(And, yes, I do know how to properly mount and aim a dish - been doing it for over a dozen years as I have moved to various locations in CA, CO, ME, and TX.)

Red

 

[RandallA]

The wobble effect is greater in the Pacific Northwest, I don't know and haven't heard any reports of this problem in Texas. I'm in California and I do see a minor drop 2-5 pts but up North, the drops are more like 20-30 pts.

In regards to your experiment, I'd say go ahead and try it. I have a 1000.2 for 129 and I also have a 500 for 129 with an I bracket and a Dual DP LNB, the difference is about 2-5 pts. Granted the 1000.2 is being used for 119 and 110 too but I don't think you're gonna see a great improvement. If you can have the dishes, I would stick with a separate 500 for 129.

 

[RedSavina]

The wobble effect is greater in the Pacific Northwest, I don't know and haven't heard any reports of this problem in Texas. I'm in California and I do see a minor drop 2-5 pts but up North, the drops are more like 20-30 pts.

Keep in mind I am as far south as one can go in Texas, right on the border with Mexico (about the same latitude as Fort Lauderdale, FL). My results will be the extreme for Texas.

In regards to your experiment, I'd say go ahead and try it. I have a 1000.2 for 129 and I also have a 500 for 129 with an I bracket and a Dual DP LNB, the difference is about 2-5 pts. Granted the 1000.2 is being used for 119 and 110 too but I don't think you're gonna see a great improvement. If you can have the dishes, I would stick with a separate 500 for 129.

I've had the same configuration as you and seen about 5-10 pts less with the standard D1000.2 configuration as compared to the D500 with I-bracket. If I can get a similar gain over the D500 setup, that may be enough. While I did see 0 a couple of times it usually bottoms out around 10 with the D1000.2. It sounds like 25-30 as a minimum might be achievable. Hopefully putting the 129W LNBF in the center position with a carefully peaked dish will get me high enough to not drop signal.

Thanks for the real-world numbers for comparison. I will update this thread with my results when I have them. It will be nice to have a set of numbers for the newly calibrated scale instead of numbers for two different scales plus trying to go by memory.

Red

 

[digiblur]

The best thing to do if you are having issues with 129 and they aren't LOS issues, is a 76cm or 90cm dish. The bigger the better.

 

[RandallA]

Keep in mind I am as far south as one can go in Texas, right on the border with Mexico (about the same latitude as Fort Lauderdale, FL). My results will be the extreme for Texas.



I've had the same configuration as you and seen about 5-10 pts less with the standard D1000.2 configuration as compared to the D500 with I-bracket. If I can get a similar gain over the D500 setup, that may be enough. While I did see 0 a couple of times it usually bottoms out around 10 with the D1000.2. It sounds like 25-30 as a minimum might be achievable. Hopefully putting the 129W LNBF in the center position with a carefully peaked dish will get me high enough to not drop signal.

Thanks for the real-world numbers for comparison. I will update this thread with my results when I have them. It will be nice to have a set of numbers for the newly calibrated scale instead of numbers for two different scales plus trying to go by memory.

Red

I have the numbers at home. I'll post them later. Basically it's numbers with the 500 and the I bracket and numbers with the 1000.2.

I thought I had it for all the Transponders, but I only have it for a few transponders.

TP 1000.2 500

11 32 36
19 48 52
22 34 37
23 37 40
27 37 41
30 48 50

 

[RedSavina]

I arrived late last night (after being out of town for a few days) to find a box with my W-bracket waiting for me!

I installed it today and have results to share, but first the bottom line: The D500 with I-bracket often provides a higher signal strength than the D1K.2 with the W-bracket and one LNBF in the "prime" center position. After staring at the two dishes for a while and pondering this unexpected result, I have a theory. I noticed that the D500 seems to have more of a curve to the reflector pan than the D1K.2. That being the case, I believe the reflected signals have a tighter focus at the LNBFs. Just a theory, but it is the best my brain can conjure!

The other thing is the "wobble effect" still causes my signal strength readings to drop to 0 for several minutes. I spent a couple of hours watching this with one box on the signal meter and the other on a tuned channel on (same TP). What I noticed is that the strength meter will be steady at 44-78 (mostly mid 50s depending on the TP) for about 65-70 minutes. Then it starts to slowly drop over the next five minutes to a reading of 0. It stays at 0 for 5-10 minutes and then climbs back up to the peak numbers where is stays for a bit more than an hour. Lather, rinse, repeat. Weird.

So here are the results. All values are averages of range observed during peak time. "Advantage" is in bold:

TP D500 D1K.2
01 45 52
02 56 51
04 81 59
05 52 58
06 53 43
07 32 43
08 78 53
09 55 17
10 70 53
11 00 36
12 70 51
13 51 49
16 63 45
17 00 45
18 48 36
19 48 52
21 00 39
22 52 47
23 00 48
27 43 51
30 63 58
32 61 56


Anyway, the geometry of the D1000.2 does not seem to improve signal strength despite more square footage than the D500. The earlier advice of going to a larger round dish still holds true as the only real way to overcome the lousy signal levels and characteristics from 129W.

Cheers,
Red

 

[RandallA]

Thanks for sharing your results. I noticed that some TPs have 0 on the D500 but have some signal on the 1000.2. What happened there?

If my RSN HD (FSBA) gets turned on, I'm thinking on getting a 24'' dish for 129. For now I'm staying with 61.5.

 

[RedSavina]

Thanks for sharing your results. I noticed that some TPs have 0 on the D500 but have some signal on the 1000.2. What happened there?

If my RSN HD (FSBA) gets turned on, I'm thinking on getting a 24'' dish for 129. For now I'm staying with 61.5.

Not sure on the zero readings. I didn't pursue it since the rest of the results were so disappointing. I also cannot explain why the results were inconsistent; thirteen TPs were better on the D500, while nine TPs were better on the D1K.2. I ran through the TP list a few times and did not see anything other than zeros where indicated. I also spent a lot of time with my meter peaking both dishes to max signals (and verifying an unobstructed view of the blue sky).

Maybe the D1K.2 does a better job of collecting signal (wider dish), but the D500 does a better job of focusing. Hard to say. *shrug*

Like you, I'm staying with 61.5 - even though my RSN is on 129. Once Sky Angel goes dark I may have to reconsider going with a 24" dish for 129.

How is 61.5 working for you in the BA? When I lived in the north bay I got a great signal on 61.5 but had to use an adapter to get the low elevation angle (I still have the adapter because my job could take me back to the west coast again). Sometimes I feel compelled to speak up about this when people complain about 61.5 from the left coast. Granted, it depends on a clear line of sight just above the horizon, but I always got better signal from 61.5 than I got from 110/119.

 

[RandallA]

I posted some pictures in another thread:

http://www.satelliteguys.us/1021387-post21.html

You could also see where the D500 for 61.5 ended up here:

http://www.satelliteguys.us/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=14965

I wouldn't sweat it about some TPs at 0 with 129. Sometimes I will be peaking it and when I come down the roof to check it again the meter is down by 5-7 pts, WTH? I just gave up on getting better signals with 129, you just need a bigger dish.

 

[aegrotatio]

The best thing to do if you are having issues with 129 and they aren't LOS issues, is a 76cm or 90cm dish. The bigger the better.

Not necessarily, a larger dish requires more precise aiming. You would be better taking a 20" DiSH 500 with an I-bracket or an aftermarket 24" Winegard with a D-tube for your 129W needs. The larger dishes will require much more precise aiming and will exacerbate the so-called "wobble" issue.

 

[RedSavina]

No sale

Not necessarily, a larger dish requires more precise aiming. You would be better taking a 20" DiSH 500 with an I-bracket or an aftermarket 24" Winegard with a D-tube for your 129W needs. The larger dishes will require much more precise aiming and will exacerbate the so-called "wobble" issue.

Sorry, I'm not buying it!

A larger dish collects more signal and focuses it to the LNB(F). What you are saying is counter-intuitive. I will grant that an FTA signal (which requires a larger dish) may be more difficult to aim, but that is due to the lower power used for FTA. Please explain how the smaller dish would be easier to focus in a DBS-only environment?

 

[CU2000]

If you are in fact having stable signal problems from wobble, than a larger Dish will only make that worse. Larger dishs have a narrower beamwidth.

 

[digiblur]

Ok... enjoy your small dish and I will enjoy my 90cm.

 

[tsduke]

Not necessarily, a larger dish requires more precise aiming. You would be better taking a 20" DiSH 500 with an I-bracket or an aftermarket 24" Winegard with a D-tube for your 129W needs. The larger dishes will require much more precise aiming and will exacerbate the so-called "wobble" issue.

Don't think so. There a lot's of us using larger dishes, including myself with very successful results. Larger the dish, the larger the sweet spot.

 

[aegrotatio]

No, the larger the dish, the smaller the "sweet spot."
The sweet spot is, of course, much stronger, but it is also much smaller and thus requires more precise aiming.

Here is REQUIRED READING for you doubters:

Determining the focal length of a parabolic dish

Footprints by Dish Size

What size satellite dish do I need?


Come back after reading it.

Thank you.

 

[tsduke]

No, the larger the dish, the smaller the "sweet spot."
The sweet spot is, of course, much stronger, but it is also much smaller and thus requires more precise aiming.

Here is REQUIRED READING for you doubters:

Determining the focal length of a parabolic dish

Footprints by Dish Size

What size satellite dish do I need?


Come back after reading it.

Thank you.

Earlier you mentioned that a larger dish isn't better. I've had no more issues peaking large dishes than smaller ones.

The whole point being made here is that a 24" or 30" dish will be much better with 129 than a 18".

This statement is from one of your links:
CHOOSING A DISH:The obvious statement is that the bigger the dish the more signal it can gather and the weaker satellite signals it can pull in.

 

[RedSavina]

No, the larger the dish, the smaller the "sweet spot."
The sweet spot is, of course, much stronger, but it is also much smaller and thus requires more precise aiming.

Here is REQUIRED READING for you doubters:

Determining the focal length of a parabolic dish

Footprints by Dish Size

What size satellite dish do I need?


Come back after reading it.

Thank you.

I read it and am checking back in...

Yes, a more severely curved dish (less flat) makes aiming more difficult. Also, dishes over 3 meters are more difficult to aim. In both cases this is due to the physical characteristics of the dish providing a narrow main beam pattern.

You will notice that neither of these two factors are relevant to our discussion. No one has proposed using a dish larger than a meter, let alone 3 meters or more! And none of the dishes mentioned has a low f/D ratio (i.e. deep dish).

While your statements are technically accurate in terms of overall dish design, they are really not applicable in the K (Ku to Ka) band and only apply to the folks with the really big dishes for C band.

Thanks for the interesting diversion, but in terms of this discussion your points really don't apply.

Cheers,
Red