Echostar 5 - 129W Footprint

[nelson61]

Echostar 5 is in the news both for poor reception in the NW and Echostar's recent hint to the FCC that they may request to move it 19 degrees West after Ceil 2 launches. The attached footprint gives one an idea of what's happening. It would appear that moving 19 degrees west could dramatically inprove signal strenght in the Western US if that's what they want to do. It's counter-intuitive, but the strongest signal strengths today for E5 appears to be in the Eastern US.

Green = 52.8 dBW

Blue = 50.8 dBW

Purple = 48.8 dBW

Yellow = 44.8 dBW

Red = 34.8 dBW

 

[ahuevos]

Echostar 5 is in the news both for poor reception in the NW and Echostar's recent hint to the FCC that they may request to move it 19 degrees West after Ceil 2 launches. The attached footprint gives one an idea of what's happening. It would appear that moving 19 degrees west could dramatically inprove signal strenght in the Western US if that's what they want to do. It's counter-intuitive, but the strongest signal strengths today for E5 appears to be in the Eastern US.

Green = 52.8 dBw

Blue = 50.8 dBw

Purple = 48.8 dBw

Yellow = 44.8 dBw

Red = 34.8 dBw

Thanks for all the maps Nelson!!!

Congrats they are very handy!!!

 

[LASooner]

Interestingly I've had spotty strength on129, TP3 for the last few weeks, but suddenly today it's at 30 and I'm getting all those channels again. Are they moving it around at all right now?

 

[TalonDancer]

Thanks for the great maps! They really explain a lot about people's comments on signal strength, rain fade etc..

WOW the current sat at 129 is a "twisted sister" This coverage map is certainly not intuitive for a Sat sitting at 129W. It must be pointing at the horizon to the east to get way better signal on the east coast than in the area directly below it in longitude. No wonder folks out west complain about this baby

Hopefully now that the Eastern Arc is at least partially lit up, the replacement for 129 will be aimed more for the Western Arc.

Talon Dancer

p.s. this one map is probably the most compelling explanation of why Dish is in a mad rush to get a single dish eastern arc implemented before they switch on the 129's replacement.

 

[jpmarto]

Another thank you for the map! Like Barney says, "sharing is caring".

It clearly explains to me why 129 in the Seattle suburbs has marginal signal, and going to my cabin 60 miles north it drops to sub-marginal. Guess I'll stop trying to tweak the 30" dish I installed up there.

 

[FitzAusTex]

Could someone provide an explanation of dBw? Might help those of use reading this thread to better understand the implications of the map. Thanks!

 

[Laddyboy]

Could someone provide an explanation of dBw? Might help those of use reading this thread to better understand the implications of the map. Thanks!

dBw = decibels per watt or signal strength per watt of power.

 

[jpmarto]

From Wikipedia:

The Decibel watt or dBW is a unit for the measurement of the strength of a signal expressed in decibels relative to one watt. It is used because of its capability to express both very large and very small values of power in a short range of number, eg 1 watt = 0 dBW, 10 watts = 10 dBW, 100 watts = 20 dBW and 1,000,000 W = 60 dBW.

Compare dBm, which is referenced to one milliwatt (0.001 W).
{end quote}

Note: The higher the number, the better. Decibels are logarithmic, so a 3 db increase is double, 6 db is 3db+3db or double+double or 4X the power, and 10db is 10X the power.

In this instance, dBW is a measurement of the effective relative power from the satellite directed towards various positions on Earth due to the satellite's location, orientation, and antenna directional pattern (referred to as its "footprint"). The received signals at ground level are very small amounts of power measured in dBm's. From the legend:

Green = 52.8 dBw
Blue = 50.8 dBw
Purple = 48.8 dBw
Yellow = 44.8 dBw
Red = 34.8 dBw

If Chicago is 52.8dBw, and Seattle is 44.8 dBw, that means Chicago viewers have about 8db more signal. If we round it to 9db, that means Chicago has 3db + 3db + 3db, or 2x 2x 2x or 8 times the signal that we in Seattle get (but Dish charges us just as much)

 

[zim2dive]

LOL, I'm in the middle of NC.. smack in the middle of the green section...

and my real-world experience with 129 s*cks... I hate to think how bad it is for other folks.. that would be just silly.

Are they sure they don't have the good/bad areas reversed?

 

[mdonnelly]

LOL, I'm in the middle of NC.. smack in the middle of the green section...

and my real-world experience with 129 s*cks... I hate to think how bad it is for other folks.. that would be just silly.

Are they sure they don't have the good/bad areas reversed?

I think it would make more sense if those were minus dB numbers.

 

[nelson61]

From Wikipedia:

The Decibel watt or dBW is a unit for the measurement of the strength of a signal expressed in decibels relative to one watt. It is used because of its capability to express both very large and very small values of power in a short range of number, eg 1 watt = 0 dBW, 10 watts = 10 dBW, 100 watts = 20 dBW and 1,000,000 W = 60 dBW.

Compare dBm, which is referenced to one milliwatt (0.001 W).
{end quote}

Note: The higher the number, the better. Decibels are logarithmic, so a 3 db increase is double, 6 db is 3db+3db or double+double or 4X the power, and 10db is 10X the power.

In this instance, dBW is a measurement of the effective relative power from the satellite directed towards various positions on Earth due to the satellite's location, orientation, and antenna directional pattern (referred to as its "footprint"). The received signals at ground level are very small amounts of power measured in dBm's. From the legend:

Green = 52.8 dBw
Blue = 50.8 dBw
Purple = 48.8 dBw
Yellow = 44.8 dBw
Red = 34.8 dBw

If Chicago is 52.8dBw, and Seattle is 44.8 dBw, that means Chicago viewers have about 8db more signal. If we round it to 9db, that means Chicago has 3db + 3db + 3db, or 2x 2x 2x or 8 times the signal that we in Seattle get (but Dish charges us just as much)

Yikes! I've been working too late at night. Proper label is dBW-- I'll correct.

 

[nelson61]

Here is a little cheat sheet I extracted from one of the manufacturers documents and keep tacked on the wall.

Remember, what you are looking for is a good signal coming out of the lnb. Working in logarithms, you start out with a strong signal at the satellite, then subtract for the loss in signal passing thru space (this does not vary much), then add signal back for the signal amplification produced by the antenna, and then add the amplification obtained in the lnb. The value you arrive at is the signal strength leaving the lnb. dBW and dBw, are logrithmic ratios referred back to either one Watt or one milliwatt. Adding logarithms is equivalent to multiplying and substracting logarithm is eqivalent to dividing. The number 30 you see in the following calculation is the conversion of dBW to dBw since all the other numbers are in dBw and everthing has to be in the same format. dBw (also called dBm) produces a nice number in a range easy to remember and work with when looking at lnb output.

This system of measurement was developed way back when people like me used Chemical Rubber Handbooks that had thousands of onionskin paper pages filled with log tables to do multiplication and division calculations by hand for really big or really small numbers. If one were starting over today, I doubt you would see dBw used since a pocket calculator can easlily do exponential math calculations.

About the only things you can control is the antenna size, the potential line lose between the lnb and the receiver and where you live.

Example:

As a starting point, assume a level of -35 dBm per transponder out of the LNB. This will of course vary with satellite footprint
EIRP, antenna size and LNB gain.
A simplified calculation to determine LNB output level is shown below.
In clear sky conditions:
LNB output (dBm) = Footprint EIRP (dBW) + 30 " (conversion from dBW to dBw)" - Path Loss (dB) + Antenna gain (dB) + LNB gain (dB).
Assume path loss = 206 dB (at 12.45 GHz); antenna gain = 34.0, 36.5 or 40.7dB for antenna size of 0.46, 0.60 or 1.0m
(at 12.45 GHz); typical footprint = 51 dBW; typical LNB gain = 56 dB.​

Example: LNB output level = 51 + 30 - 206 + 34 + 56 = -35 dBm

 

[ralfyguy]

Echostar 5 is in the news both for poor reception in the NW and Echostar's recent hint to the FCC that they may request to move it 19 degrees West after Ceil 2 launches. The attached footprint gives one an idea of what's happening. It would appear that moving 19 degrees west could dramatically inprove signal strenght in the Western US if that's what they want to do. It's counter-intuitive, but the strongest signal strengths today for E5 appears to be in the Eastern US.

Why bother and try to move it? It's pretty much out of fuel anyways. Might as well use the remaining fuel, and get it out of the way into junk-orbit! What would be the perpose to move this thing to a different slot? That's completely stupid!

 

[TalonDancer]

...What would be the perpose to move this thing to a different slot? That's completely stupid!

Ummm. 129+19 = 148 IOW the location of the Dish satellite that went dark not too long ago when they tried to move it to the Eastern Arc. Dish is running low on quality space assets just now. So ANY working satellite to fill a hole is better than none

Talon Dancer

 

[cebbigh]

What is the best case on how long until Ceil2 is up and working?

 

[nelson61]

What is the best case on how long until Ceil2 is up and working?

A good guess is the first of the year.

 

[djmaui]

A good guess is the first of the year.

Nelson61, mahalo for the various posts with footprints and lessons on that subject. They are such a big help.

Do you by any chance have access to the proposed footprint for ciel-2 @ 129?

 

[nelson61]

Nelson61, mahalo for the various posts with footprints and lessons on that subject. They are such a big help.

Do you by any chance have access to the proposed footprint for ciel-2 @ 129?

Not yet but expect to have it in the next month or so. I'm also working on getting the 61.5W info (a little more difficult).

 

[TalonDancer]

.... I'm also working on getting the 61.5W info (a little more difficult).

That would be wonderful! :up The CONUS footprint for 61.5 would be very useful. And you'd be a hero if you could make a map for the spots

Talon Dancer

 

[cebbigh]

A good guess is the first of the year.

Reception of E5 in the Pacific NW is what drove me away from Dish. Once Ceil 2 is operational the lure of the 722 and HD only pack will probably pull me back to Dish. I also have Fios as an option now. Really like having to make tough choices like this. :