DVR functions that could be disabled

[SantaCruzJoe]

I'm a cable subscriber and bought a ReplayTV DVR when it first came out. Unfortunately my ReplayTV is coming to the end of it's life.

I'm looking at switching to Satellite and have been leaning toward Dish Network because everything I've read indicates they have the best DVR.

I'm now dragging my feet a bit after reading that Tivo has won the patent suit (although the ruling is currently stayed). Can anyone answer what the worst case scenario is for Dish DVR users? Could they completely go dark? If not, what features may be disabled?

I apologize if this has already been answered in the forum or if this forum is the wrong venue to ask this.

Thanks.

 

[TheKrell]

Judge Folsom, in a completely disproportionate, unreasonable, and I think probably unsustainable ruling, ordered Dish to turn off all DVR functionality, not just the parts that violate Tivo's IP. It's as though he thinks Tivo invented the DVR, which they did not.

Most people around here think that Dish will do something, either license the IP, or else buy out the company, rather than turn DVR's into plain old receivers.

 

[garys]

Plus most of the dvr receivers Dish would need to turn off have already been done. Current models will not be effected by the ruling.

 

[Awohar]

i hope dish buys tivo, fires everyone there, and then puts the whole gutted company in the bargain bin at a garage sale.

 

[SantaCruzJoe]

So the new models won't be affected? What models would be?

 

[Awohar]

Does anyone here really believe that Charlie would let some small fry like Tivo disrupt the use of DVR service to all of his customers. It would be death to DISH if that were to occur. The reality is that the ongoing legal battle still represents the most economical approach to keeping DVR functionality. If that fails, he will simply purchase Tivo or license the software.

 

[garys]

So the new models won't be affected? What models would be?

All those still active, 501; 508; 510; 522; 625; 612; 622 and 722. Plus the soon to be released 922.

 

[Voyager6]

All those still active, 501; 508; 510; 522; 625; 612; 622 and 722. Plus the soon to be released 922.

Some of those models have not yet been found to be infringing. Here is the list of infringing DVR's from Judge Folsom's ruling:

Defendants’ following DVR receivers (collectively the “Infringing Products”): DP-501, DP-508, DP-510, DP-522, DP-625, DP-721, DP-921, and DP-942.

Here is the link to the ruling from Judge Folsom. Only the listed models are threatened AT THIS TIME with disablement. All of E*'s other DVR models MAY be added to the list if the Court orders it. That would require further litigation and then appeals and ....

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

If I were a betting man I would say none of the DVR functions are going to be disabled.

 

[Voyager6]

If I were a betting man I would say none of the DVR functions are going to be disabled.

But at what cost to E* and E*'s DVR users? Unless E* scores big with the Appeals Court, E* will have to pay up to TIVOeek or buy TIVO outright. Both of the latter options will be really expensive.

 

[deathopie]

You can read Tivo's response to the request to Stay the injunction requiring the DVR's to be disabled here:



Bottom of the page, "Tivo-opposition"

Charlie's backed into a corner here. It's going to cost him. Tivo has a poison pill, so buying them is probably not an option.

 

[DishSubLA]

I'm a cable subscriber and bought a ReplayTV DVR when it first came out. Unfortunately my ReplayTV is coming to the end of it's life.

I'm looking at switching to Satellite and have been leaning toward Dish Network because everything I've read indicates they have the best DVR.

I'm now dragging my feet a bit after reading that Tivo has won the patent suit (although the ruling is currently stayed). Can anyone answer what the worst case scenario is for Dish DVR users? Could they completely go dark? If not, what features may be disabled?

I apologize if this has already been answered in the forum or if this forum is the wrong venue to ask this.

Thanks.

The worst case scenario is that Dish will have to pay (in addition to past damages) Tivo a royalty each month for all the DVR's that are said to use patented Tivo software (at this time, the ViP's were not part of the DVR's found to be infringing because they didn't exist when Tivo filed its suit years ago). In other words, the monthly DVR fee charged to the consumer for each DVR on the account (subscription to Everything Pack waives all DVR fees) will likely increase to pay Tivo. My guess is that it would be at least $1 but could be more, but I do not see it going over $3 than current fee.

Tivo wants the $$$, desperately. It is on life-support and is transitioning their business model to be software only. A cash infusion and royalty deal with Dish is what will bring them back from near death. It is not in the interest of Tivo to force the shutdown of Dish's DVR's: that is for leverage in coming to terms of an agreement, and Dish just can't allow the DVR's to be shutdown. So that means, worst case, Dish will have to pay what Tivo demands.

However, the royalty could be discounted if Dish agrees to offer a Dish with Tivo DVR much like Direct TV and Comcast and TWC, providing Tivo with even more revenue because in this arrangement it is the carrier (Dish, Direct, et al.), not Tivo, who pays for all marketing and advertising--well, pretty much all the costs--to promote Tivo. This is what Tivo really wants: securing agreements to use the Tivo software and pay for it, or else! And if Dish is forced to pay, then others will follow for fear of being sued and losing. Everyone in pay-TV is watching this case, and if Dish can't get a permanent stay, they know they are next to either pay Tivo or be sued.

So, in other words, not much of a horrible scenario, really. I would still stay with Dish because the DVR's and service and what I get for the money still beats ALL other options, for me. The sky will not fall.

 

[Awohar]

Well if they were to have to shut off infringing receivers or pay the royalties, I think dish would simply swap out all the receivers for either a 612 or 722k rather than being committed to paying tivo indefinitely.

 

[deathopie]

The problem they have is they were found to be in contempt of a previous order. The judge found that their "work around" still infringed and he's not too happy about it. Damages are typically trebled (at least) for willful infringement. I don't think the boxes will be shut off, but I think $3 a box is going to be low. The judge is pissed. Damages for ignoring the order to shut off the dvr's are going to be huge. DISH's market share increased significantly during this time while TIVO's shrank. Pain is in the forecast for Charlie.

 

[Stargazer]

Dish can't raise the price of their DVR fees or they will become more expensive than Directv. Dish has to eat it. Raising prices equals losing subscribers. Directv will advertise how they are cheaper than Dish on the DVR fees.

 

[Hall]

But at what cost to E* and E*'s DVR users? Unless E* scores big with the Appeals Court, E* will have to pay up to TIVOeek or buy TIVO outright. Both of the latter options will be really expensive.

Exactly ... to make a blanket statement like "none of the functions will be disabled" is narrow thinking. As I said in another thread, what if TiVo says it will cost $500,000,000 or a billion dollars to license the technology ? What if TiVo says "no, we're not interested in licensing it to you" ? Or, what if Dish wants to buy TiVo but doesn't have the $$$ and can't get the money loaned to them ?

 

[bobvick]

If you will look at both Echostar and Dish Network's latest 10-Q for Q1 2009 you will see on their balance sheet that the two firms have an aggreagate of cash and cash equivalents of over $400,000,000.00. DISH has current assets in excess of $2,000,000,000.00. The current market cap of DISH is $6,930,000,000, the current market cap of SATS is $1,410,000,000.00.
TIVO's market cap is $1,180,000,000. TIVO has cash and cash equivalents of $150,000,000.00 and current assets in the amount of $237,000,000.00
So in short, in terms of cash, DISH and SATS together have around 2.6 times as much cash as TIVO and the current assets of just DISH is 8.5 times that of TIVO. So Dish should have no problem of getting credit if they wanted to buy Tivo.

 

[deathopie]

Dish filed their response on the stay today. That should be some interesting reading once it's available. The link I posted above should have it by tomorrow I would think.

So Dish should have no problem of getting credit if they wanted to buy Tivo.

I read somewhere that Google would make sense as a possible buyer of Tivo. I believe Tivo has a poison pill which would make a hostile take over very lucrative for tivo owners. I think $60.

 

[GaryPen]

Charlie should be able to afford to give Tivo $1 from the $6 he collects from Dish DVR users.

 

[Voyager6]

Charlie should be able to afford to give Tivo $1 from the $6 he collects from Dish DVR users.

Now that TIVO has won the first two rounds of the court battle, I don't think that they are going to give favorable license terms to E*. Somewhere (probably in the TIVO vs. E* thread) on SatGuys, I believe that I read that D* and Comcast are licensing their TIVO boxes in the $3 range. I expect that TIVO will demand no less from E*.