DVR and law

[Getut]

Ok... let me first apologize for my first two postings being questions (sometimes really just a statement) that may stir the pot, but the real reason people participate in forums like this is get information about the issues they deem as important.

Yesterday I mentioned the picture quality, but the other question/statement that hopefully SOMEONE here knows about is: what will be Dish Networks stance on the anticopy bit (broadcast flag) and our DVRs? If you don't know what I'm talking about go here and study up on it... its nasty.

I'm worried that Dish Network will retrofit their existing DVR's with firmware that honors the broadcast flag, and then we will be at the mercy of the broadcasters again (i.e. watching on THEIR schedule instead of ours). I just don't wan't some big corporation telling me what I can record and what I can't record, and I DEFINITELY don't like being treated like a criminal. This is also the reason why they'll pry my big screen analog television from my cold dead fingers. As long as I've got that analog television, I can always capture even if they don't want me to.

Again.. sorry for the rants and/or questions that are somewhat flamebait, but its what is important to me. If someone knows how this might turn out.. offer some insight and I promise I'll play nice from now on unless someone mentions these two topics again .

 

[mallu2u]

What happens to the current HD DVRs though beyond July, 2005? Will they allow recording or not?

 

[Ken F]

I'm worried that Dish Network will retrofit their existing DVR's with firmware that honors the broadcast flag, and then we will be at the mercy of the broadcasters again (i.e. watching on THEIR schedule instead of ours). I just don't wan't some big corporation telling me what I can record and what I can't record, and I DEFINITELY don't like being treated like a criminal. This is also the reason why they'll pry my big screen analog television from my cold dead fingers. As long as I've got that analog television, I can always capture even if they don't want me to.

EFF.ORG deals in propaganda, so you need to be careful with that site. The EFF pushes an agenda, and they do so by conveniently excluding certain facts.

The broadcast flag is meant to deter unauthorized redistribution of digital recordings over the Internet; as a result, it impacts any technology that can be used to copy or share digital DTV/HDTV recordings with a PC. The broadcast flag does not apply to standalone devices that have no way to share their digital content with a PC. As far as the John Q Public is concerned, the broadcast flag does not affect standalone STBs and DVRs.

No current Dish or DirecTV DVR has the means to output digital recordings to a PC. Thus, the broadcast flag does not affect any current Dish or DirecTV receiver.

Content viewed through through s-video, composite, and coax connections is not digital. It is analog. You can continue to make analog recordings of DTV/HDTV content from s-video, composite, and coax outputs to VCRs, DVD writers, and PCs, just as you have always done.

The broadcast flag does not affect DVRs, which store their recordings on an internal hard disk. The BF only affects digital recordings that leave the box in digital form. For example, a DVR that allowed you to wirelessly share the digital recordings with your PC would be required to use a BF-authorized technology. There are now several such authorized technologies, including one from Tivo called TiVoGuard, which uses special software on the PC to view encrypted digital recordings on a future DTV/HDTV Tivo. Other authorized technologies include 5C/DTCP, for recording to HDTV D-VHS VCRs and future blu-ray HDTV disk recorders.

The broadcast flag attempts to deter unauthorized redistribution of copyrighted content over the Internet by posing additional restrictions on boxes that are able to share the original, unaltered digital source with a PC or the Internet. For example, future HDTV PC DVRs will have to encrypt their network recordings on the hard disk to prevent redistribution. Existing HDTV PC cards that save the original digital content to the hard disk--without any encryption or protection--will no longer be permitted next year.

Once again, analog recordings of downconverted DTV/HDTV content using s-video, composite, and coax are not affected. Nor does the broadcast flag impact your ability to record with current Firewire HDTV D-VHS VCRs, which already feature the BF-approved 5C encryption. Nor does it affect recordings that are encrypted to the hard drive within the box -- as is the case for current Dish and DirecTV DVRs.

I just don't wan't some big corporation telling me what I can record and what I can't record, and I DEFINITELY don't like being treated like a criminal.

I guess you don't put locks on your doors then? I guess you don't shop in stores that put those anti-shoplifting tags on their goods?

 

[Getut]

KenF... I have to respectfully disagree with your rosy outlook on the situation due to the following additional information:

I personally know that there are business models forming that are squarely centered on using the broadcast flag to make the fat guys fatter. They are already hard at work integrating broadcast flag into any device that can record and are developing software that allows them to interactively control the broadcast flag. Yes, that means that its on if you want to record you can't... but order the special version for $5 extra with the broadcast flag removed and blammo.. you can record. Instant additional revenue stream for the fat guys.

Interactive TV is being coded right now to enable this new revenue stream for something that was previously free. Even called a fair-use "right". I just don't think that they should be able to do this and I hope that Dish Network will take the stance and stand up for the little guy on this.

 

[ShadowEKU]

they can do that if tey want and suddenly there will be a large jump in VCR sales and alot of DVR's being turned in. I pay basicly 100 a month for 2 dvrs (522,510, 311) no dvr fee because of top tier programming... there is no way in hell im gonna pay 5bucks everytime im not going to be home to watch stargate because some ass wants to make ppl watch the program when they show it. can someone say ppv. either way i dont want to get tangled up in it if they do limit what i can record on my dvr's ill jsut go buy a new vcr and downgrade my recievers.

 

[Ken F]

Getat,

You are still confused. I was not presenting an opinion of what will and won't happen; I was summarizing the contents of the FCC "broadcast flag" rule. It sounds like you need to read it.

The broadcast flag does not prevent recording on any standalone DVR. It does not apply to standalone DVRs. By FCC rule, it only limits digital recordings outside the STB to devices supporting the broadcast flag approved technologies.

The FCC ruled that broadcasters cannot limit the number of recordings made using these approved technologies; use of "copy never" and "copy once" on broadcast content is prohibited. The FCC was very careful to re-affirm the consumer's right to record with the broadcast flag mandate. Recording simply requires use of an "approved technology" -- the approved technologies are those that the FCC felt would deter unauthorized re-distribution over the Internet.

Next year, all DTV/HDTV devices with external digital output will have to include one of the authorized technologies for recording (see below). There will not be BF and no-BF versions of products; that is prohibited, at least here in the United States.

You can read the FCC's press release on these approved technologies right here:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE NEWS MEDIA CONTACT August 4, 2004 Suzon Cameron (202) 418-1916

FCC APPROVES DIGITAL OUTPUT PROTECTION TECHNOLOGIES AND RECORDING METHOD CERTIFICATIONS

Washington, DC The Federal Communications Commission ( FCC ) today adopted a Report and Order ( Order ) approving thirteen digital output protection technologies and recording methods under the evaluative criteria established in the Digital Broadcast Content Protection Report and Order ( Broadcast Flag Order ), subject to certain conditions. In the Broadcast Flag Order, the Commission adopted a redistribution control content protection system, also known as the broadcast flag, to protect digital broadcast television from the threat of mass, indiscriminate redistribution while protecting consumers' use and enjoyment of digital broadcast content. Today's Order finds that each technology as approved is appropriate for use in DTV reception equipment to give effect to the broadcast flag. The Order states that once a particular content protection technology or recording method has been approved under the interim process, such approval remains valid unless: (1) the underlying technology or its license terms have been altered in a manner that triggers the FCC s change management oversight, or (2) the approval is revoked pursuant to Section 73.9008(e) of the Commission s rules. The Order also specifies that the FCC s review of these technologies extends only to their suitability in protecting digital broadcast television content as a part of the redistribution control system established in the Broadcast Flag Order. Finally, the Order provides that FCC review and approval of these technologies will be made on a transport-by-transport or media-by-media basis, given the significant technical and licensing changes that can result when a technology is mapped to a new transport or media. The Order reiterates that the Commission s goal in the Broadcast Flag Order was to prevent the indiscriminate redistribution of digital broadcast television content. As such, the Order does not require proximity controls as an additional obligation where other reasonable constraints sufficiently limit the redistribution of content. Therefore, the Order does not require the use of localization constraints in connection with the SmartRight and TiVoGuard technologies since they employ different combinations of device limits, interactive device authentication, and affinity-based mechanisms to restrict redistribution. On the technical side, the FCC finds that sufficient evidence has been presented demonstrating that each digital output protection technology and recording method, except for DTCP over Bluetooth, is technically sufficient to adequately protect digital broadcast television content from indiscriminate redistribution. The FCC also examines the licensing terms associated with each technology and concludes that an FCC oversight role over interoperability and change management matters is appropriate. With respect to the licensing of intellectual property, the Order concludes that the Commission should not adopt one approach over another. As flag-compliant devices are introduced in the marketplace, however, if such license terms are used in combination with market power in an anti-competitive manner, the Order explains that any concerns should be brought to the Commission or the relevant antitrust authorities, or can be addressed through private enforcement action.

Specifically, today's Order approved the following thirteen digital output technology and recording methods: MagicGate Type-R for Secure Video Recording for Hi-MD Hardware (Sony Corporation) MagicGate Type-R for Secure Video Recording for Memory Stick PRO Software (Sony Corporation) MagicGate Type-R for Secure Video Recording for Hi-MD Software (Sony Corporation) MagicGate Type-R for Secure Video Recording for Memory Stick PRO Hardware (Sony Corporation) SmartRight (Thomson, et al) Vidi Recordable DVD Protection System (Philips Electronics North America and Hewlett-Packard Company) High Bandwidth Digital Content Protection (Digital Content Protection, LLC) Content Protection recordable Media for Video Content (4C Entity, LLC) TiVoGuard Digital Output Protection Technology (TiVo Inc.) Digital Transmission Content Protection (Digital Transmission Licensing Administration) Helix DRM Trusted Recorder (RealNetworks, Inc.) Windows Media Digital Rights Management (Microsoft Corporation) D-VHS (Victor Company of Japan (JVC) Action by the Commission, August 4, 2004, by Report and Order (FCC-04-193). Chairman Powell, Commissioners Abernathy, Copps, and Adelstein with Commissioner Martin approving in part and concurring in part. Commissioner Martin issuing a separate statement. Docket 04-55 -- FCC-- Media Bureau staff contacts: Susan Mort and Rick Chessen at (202) 418-7200, TTY: (202) 418-7172

 

[NightRyder]

I predict this will be as successful as DVD copy protection.

I don't condone piracy or unauthorized distribution of copyrighted content but if the government chooses to make consumers criminals for exercising their fair use rights then the consumer is entitled to use whatever means are available to re-gain those rights. In a global economy any country that tries this type of control by it's self is doomed to fail.

NightRyder

 

[GaryPen]

The key will be to restore the FCC to a commission that has the best interests of the American people in mind, and not one whose nose is buried up the butts of the NAB, MPAA, and RIAA, as Michael Powell's is.
That will only happen with a change in Federal administration from one that always takes the side of corporate profit vs the citizens' health and welfare, whether it relates to the environment, consumer protection, labor law, health care, FCC, FDA, USDA, or anything else you can think of, to one that has a little more concern for the people of this great nation.
But, that's just me.

 

[SimpleSimon]

Yeah - I'm sure that someone is going to build a box that "touches" the digital data stream and sits between a DVD recorder and the 'source' digital output. remember the 'video stabilizers' that killed the VCR copy protection?

It DOES scare me that the MPAA, etc. are going to try to suck more money out of us just to do time-shifting.

As for EFF.ORG - yes, they have an agenda and spin things for that purpose - but the agenda is to benefit US. I think it'd good to have an outfit that's a bit out on the extreme - just like for other political issues.

 

[NightRyder]

The key will be to restore the FCC to a commission that has the best interests of the American people in mind, and not one whose nose is buried up the butts of the NAB, as Michael Powell's is.
That will only happen with a change in Federal administration from one that always takes the side of corporate profit vs the citizens' health and welfare, whether it relates to the environment, consumer protection, labor law, health care, FCC, FDA, USDA, or anything else you can think of, to one that has a little more concern for the people of this great nation.
But, that's just me.

Yeah. Who is that Libertarian candidate again?

NightRyder

 

[hancox]

one thing I've never understood about this whole argument. Tell me if I'm stupid. If the MPAA, etc is asking for a broadcast flag to protect their intellectual property, why does the state/quality come into play at all? Yes, I understand the "benefits" for hacking/staeling if you have a perfect digital copy, but technologies exist to get a damn good analog copy converted.

Again - might sound naive here, but this smells like something that would be thrown out of court in a split second to me

 

[GaryPen]

Yeah. Who is that Libertarian candidate again?

NightRyder

Pat Paulsen?

 

[DarrellP]

This is one reason I use a stand alone PVR, Dish can't force feed me any firmware and I can record my HD channels downrezzed to DVD quality, no more mushy Dish picture.

 

[John W]

One positive thing that we can always count on from Charlie is to fight things like this to the bitter end. Look at what he has done for us and our locals.

 

[GaryPen]

Oh yeah. Removing the firewire port on the 921 shows us how hard he fights. I guess the bitter end came sooner than anticipated.

 

[Ken F]

Yeah - I'm sure that someone is going to build a box that "touches" the digital data stream and sits between a DVD recorder and the 'source' digital output. remember the 'video stabilizers' that killed the VCR copy protection?

The digital output is encrypted, so I don't see how that would do you much good.

Philips and others have already unveiled BF-approved technologies for saving the original, unmodified DTV/HDTV signal to DVD. However, these recordings won't be compatible with standard DVD players. They'll only plack back on the original DVD writer and special DVD players that have licensed the technology. These disks will only playback on computers when special software is used.

Of course, if you just want to save the 480i signal from s-video, composite, or coax to a VCR or DVD recorder, you can do that, just as you do today. The BF does nothing to stop recording via analog outputs.

 

[NightRyder]

The digital output is encrypted, so I don't see how that would do you much good.

Anything encrypted has a key. Anything with a key can be cracked. Simple as that.

NightRyder

 

[Big Bob]

Anything encrypted has a key. Anything with a key can be cracked. Simple as that.

NightRyder

*Given enough time and computing power. Both of which are finite. If the key is complex enough, you will run out of time (you will die) trying to crack the key using the available computing power. You can increase both by getting many people and computers to work together on the problem, but in the end, there is only so much computing power and so many people.

 

[SimpleSimon]

The digital output is encrypted, so I don't see how that would do you much good.

You're saying that the DVI-D output of my 921 is encrypted and my HDTV has a decryption chip in it?

OK. Assumig you're right, what's to stop the hacker from ripping apart a cheap digital TV and going from there? This of course assumes that for some reason, the chips can not be acquired over-the-counter.

 

[Ken F]

You're saying that the DVI-D output of my 921 is encrypted and my HDTV has a decryption chip in it?

DVI-CP content is encrypted, and yes, every HDTV supporting HDCP has a built-in decryption chip. This is not an off-the-shelf part; each vendor has their own set of keys, and if compromised, the vendor's key will be revoked and no longer authorized for viewing-- via software update or remote command to satellite or cable STB. This is required by the license agreement, afaik.

Dish Network and DirecTV don't currently use HDCP on their content, although they will eventually. VOOM uses HDCP on its content now; VOOM reported that new programming contracts for certain HDTV channels now require it. Other DBS providers are evidently "grandfathered" until their existing contracts expire.