DVD Forum approves 'bigger than Blu-ray' HD DVD

[CochiseGuy]

Breaking news first reported on Screen Digest.com -

China,USA, DVD Forum approves 'bigger than Blu-ray' HD DVD

07 Sep 07

Source: Online Services/Intelligence/Video and DVD/Updates

The DVD Forum, the international DVD standards authority, has approved a 51 GB single-sided triple-layer HD DVD disc for production. Extension to the HD DVD standard, which was submitted by Toshiba in April, received approval on 31 August 2007.


Other recent developments include:

* A single-sided triple-layer HD DVD/DVD hybrid (twin) disc, the DVD layer of which would be playable by legacy DVD players, is expected to be approved before the year end.



Our take...
The approval of Toshiba's 51 GB disc is good news for the HD DVD camp, allowing it to compete directly with rival Blu-ray Disc's (BD) dual-layer 50 GB disc. As with the BD50, it is likely to take some time for production yields to reach a commercially viable level. However, once this has been achieved it will arguably eliminate one of the principle reasons behind some studios' support of Blu-ray over HD DVD, thus potentially making it easier for Disney or Fox to adopt a format-agnostic position without losing face. Meanwhile, the development of a triple-layer single-sided hybrid HD DVD/DVD disc will also be welcomed by HD DVD supporters. Both Warner and Universal have been releasing double-sided hybrids in the US for some time but they have yet to use this approach in Europe. Single-sided hybrids (sometimes called 'twin format' discs) offer the same space for promotional printing as traditional optical discs and do not require the consumer to think about which way to put them into the player. Anime title Freedom was released in the US as a single-sided hybrid in June but its capacity (15 GB HD DVD and 4.7 GB DVD) was not sufficient for a major studio release. The approval by the Forum of a triple-layer hybrid might arguably encourage some studios to release certain titles only on HD DVD/DVD hybrids, which could in turn lead to some DVD buyers building up a library of HD DVD titles by default, before making the decision to upgrade to a hi-def video player. So far there have been no indications that the BD camp plans to support hybrid discs.

Interesting news. HD DVD "Insiders" have consistently downplayed the importance of 51GB disc. But, it is good "bragging rights".

And that triple layer "twin format" has a lot of potential. So far on ly one titles has it - a Japanese Anime title called "Freedom", and it was limited to only 15 GB HD DVD & 4.5 BG DVD. But it's slick. It only has the data one one side, a label on the other. It has both DVD and HD DVD layers. You stick it in a regular DVD player and it starts up the DVD. You put it in an HD DVD player and the menu asks which version you want to play. Could be key in transitioning from DVD to HD.

 

[charper1]

So now we can expect the announcement any day now of the triple-layer Blu-ray that will surpass that. Maybe it will derive from this development?

Warner Developing Triple-Layer Blu-ray /HD DVD disc? | High-Def Digest

 

[CochiseGuy]

So now we can expect the announcement any day now of the triple-layer Blu-ray that will surpass that. Maybe it will derive from this development?

Warner Developing Triple-Layer Blu-ray /HD DVD disc? | High-Def Digest

Tue Sep 19, 2006 at 03:54 PM ET

Wow - you have a good memory and/or bookmarking system.

That was Warner's first work on what became the "TotalHD" concept - a disk with both HD DVD & Blu-ray formats. But that concept of both on the same side didn't work. They revised it to HD DVD on one side and Blu-ray on the other. Still problems - a Warner rep at the IFA a week or so ago said the concept was still "alive" but didn't sound too optimistic.

The problems Warner encountered is probably the same as the BDA did. The BDA has a spec for Blu-ray & DVD on the same side - that BD data a .1mm and the DVD at .6mm. But they couldn't get it to work either. With the data so close - .1mm - there's just no tolerance for any imperfections.

Read the thread here about the HD/BD yields. Even the scratch resistant coating is causing high failure rates on BD SL/DL discs when the data is used to to the full capacity because it ends up being slightly thicker at the edges.

 

[navychop]

So the old story about 30GB being "more than good enough" suddenly isn't so?

And that bit about claiming all current BD players will be "obsolete" doesn't apply to HD DVD? Every current Blu-ray player will play future Blu-ray movies. But no current HD DVD player will play a future triple layer HD DVD- only the SD DVD portion. How do you define "obsolete?"

So much for the story about the HD DVD specs being "final" while Blu-ray "isn't."


Now that I've got that out of my system, this is probably a good thing for future PQ & AQ. And it will likely push Blu-ray into higher capacities- at least for data. I know they've prototyped 4 and 6 layers. But what will it do to sales of current HD DVD players? I guess this all points to manufacturers and studios planning on a long war, and figuring they each have at least another year to get their respective acts together.

Why didn't they announce this at CEDIA? Did they not want the publicity?

My finger is hovering over the button to buy that PS3. I guess I'll think about it some more. A few minutes, anyway.

 

[charper1]

So the old story about 30GB being "more than good enough" suddenly isn't so? So much for the story about the HD DVD specs being "final" while Blu-ray "isn't." Why didn't they announce this at CEDIA? Did they not want the publicity?

That was kind of my exact reaction to this. I could really care less which one "wins", I just want the ONE best product with the longest life expectancy.

 

[charper1]

Tue Sep 19, 2006 at 03:54 PM ET

Wow - you have a good memory and/or bookmarking system.

I guess my point was that the triple-layer thing really is not all that new, big news and like I said before I thought the entire HD DVD camp was backing that they had plenty and there was no need for bigger; and now it just seems they they may have found a stable way to do theirs, suddenly it IS needed, maybe only because they can say we are bigger now. It won't last and is only "hoopla" to me and they both are too guilty of it.

 

[teachsac]

But no current HD DVD player will play a future triple layer HD DVD- only the SD DVD portion. How do you define "obsolete?"

You sure about that? As of yet, it has not been verified whether they will or won't be able to. Gen1 and Gen2 players "might" be able to play the triple layer discs with an upgrade. Gen3 is said to most certainly be able to. Gen1 players use an NEC drive. When this originally came up, NEC said, "We don't see any reason it won't."

I'm not saying that they will be or won't be able to play triple layer disks. We'll have to wait and see once they are in development. It will probably be quite a while before movies start appearing on the shelf with a triple layer.

S~

 

[navychop]

No, I'm not sure about that. Now I'm reading elsewhere that they might get some or all current ones to work on up to 4 layers with a firmware update. Not definite, though.

And how easily will these be made on existing lines?

 

[CochiseGuy]

Now that I've got that out of my system, this is probably a good thing for future PQ & AQ. And it will likely push Blu-ray into higher capacities- at least for data. I know they've prototyped 4 and 6 layers. But what will it do to sales of current HD DVD players? I guess this all points to manufacturers and studios planning on a long war, and figuring they each have at least another year to get their respective acts together.

Why didn't they announce this at CEDIA? Did they not want the publicity?

My finger is hovering over the button to buy that PS3. I guess I'll think about it some more. A few minutes, anyway.

Well, first - I might have been a little trigger happy with the OP. It broke over on AVS and folks were all over it. The article may not be 100% accurate. Insiders are saying it was the HD DVD Working Group that certified it for approval by the full DVD Forum at it's meeting next week.

Secondly "Insiders" are saying HD DVD 3rd Gen Players (due out in October) definitely will support Triple Layer, 2nd Gen players (current A2 & XA2) "probably" will support it, and 1st Gen players (like mine ) "may" support it. But, that's Triple Layer"pure" HD DVD - IF studios feel they ever have a need for it.

The main focus of this is for triple layer "twin format" - one layer of standard DVD (4.5GB) and two layers of HD DVD. When you put the disc in a regular DVD player and it plays the DVD and doesn't see the HD DVD layers. Put it in an HD DVD player and its an HD DVD. What this does is pave the way to do away with releasing on DVD only for studios like Paramount and Universal - among others. You save the studios making multiple releases for movies, save the stores the shelf space of multiple SKU's. And, pave the way for consumers with HDTV's to make a . . "logical" path for upgrade the next time they need to buy a new disc player.

 

[vurbano]

So the old story about 30GB being "more than good enough" suddenly isn't so?

Actually it is. In most cases the HD DVD looks even better than the BD equivalent. BD has more capacity but has not surpassed HD DVD PQ on any film common to both. This does allow more extras though on HD DVD. But mainly, this is all about hype and killing the BD talking points.

 

[vurbano]

You sure about that? As of yet, it has not been verified whether they will or won't be able to. Gen1 and Gen2 players "might" be able to play the triple layer discs with an upgrade. Gen3 is said to most certainly be able to. Gen1 players use an NEC drive. When this originally came up, NEC said, "We don't see any reason it won't."

I'm not saying that they will be or won't be able to play triple layer disks. We'll have to wait and see once they are in development. It will probably be quite a while before movies start appearing on the shelf with a triple layer.

S~

Im ready to buy an A35 anyway. I think VE has them on preorder for 450 dollars.

 

[teachsac]

Im ready to buy an A35 anyway. I think VE has them on preorder for 450 dollars.

I'm looking at that one also. I'll probably put my First gen in the twin's room. Robert is a great guy. I bought my Panasonic from him. Now that I know which HD-DVD player to get, I'm still waiting for a BD player that meets 1.1 specs at minimum.

S~

 

[CochiseGuy]

I'm looking at that one also. I'll probably put my First gen in the twin's room. Robert is a great guy. I bought my Panasonic from him. Now that I know which HD-DVD player to get, I'm still waiting for a BD player that meets 1.1 specs at minimum.

S~

Robert is a great guy - I bought my XA1 from him and it was A+ service.

The only problem - for Richard & Toshiba - is that it works so well I've had no incentive to upgrade. But, I have several - and growing number of - those European imports with DTS-HD MA audio. If the Onkyo or Integra players come through with sending it to my Onkyo receiver for decoding, that's when I upgrade. :

 

[navychop]

The main focus of this is for triple layer "twin format" - one layer of standard DVD (4.5GB) and two layers of HD DVD. When you put the disc in a regular DVD player and it plays the DVD and doesn't see the HD DVD layers. Put it in an HD DVD player and its an HD DVD.

Something doesn't add up here. Isn't it true that both DVD & HD DVD have their primary layer at .6? Wouldn't you have to flip it- one side with 2, 3 or 4 HD DVD layers, and one with DVD? Or do they somehow code the primary DVD layer to tell an HD DVD player to skip that layer and go to the next- without this interfering with a DVD playing it?

 

[CochiseGuy]

Something doesn't add up here. Isn't it true that both DVD & HD DVD have their primary layer at .6? Wouldn't you have to flip it- one side with 2, 3 or 4 HD DVD layers, and one with DVD? Or do they somehow code the primary DVD layer to tell an HD DVD player to skip that layer and go to the next- without this interfering with a DVD playing it?

Well, I'm no expert in optical disc design & replication, but from what I understand -

- Yes, DVD & HD DVD are all encoded at .6mm.

- The HD DVD layers are encoded for blue laser, so the red laser of a DVD player on sees the DVD layer(s).

- The HD DVD player sees all layers. I would imagine they would encode the disk to at least give the user an option to play the DVD layer - for whatever reason. But, probably buried in the "Setup" menu, along with language audio & subtitle options.

 

[CochiseGuy]

Something doesn't add up here. Isn't it true that both DVD & HD DVD have their primary layer at .6? Wouldn't you have to flip it- one side with 2, 3 or 4 HD DVD layers, and one with DVD? Or do they somehow code the primary DVD layer to tell an HD DVD player to skip that layer and go to the next- without this interfering with a DVD playing it?

By the way - congrats on moving over to enjoying high def movies.

I hope you enjoy the PS3.

 

[navychop]

Thank you. Now I have to wait another 2-3 weeks for delivery. Seems odd that there'd be such a wait. Where's that "nail-biting" smiley?

Anyway, I forgot to order the remote. Gotta go do that now. Oh, I guess I might buy another movie or two while I'm at it.

For someone who doesn't watch a lot of movies, I've sure got a lot of them on my Amazon Wish List, for family members to give me at Xmas! My wife has put some on her Wish List too, thankfully! I call that "buy in!"

I ordered a 3 way HDMI switch from Monoprice. So I'm ready if I buy an HD DVD player next year. Just in case, you see.

 

[JoeSp]

Congrats on the PS3 navychop. Your wait will be rewarded. Now you can start watching all those BD movies you have been stockpiling!

 

[navychop]

Yes. I'm inclined to watch "Casino Royale" first, but I think my wife is inclined toward "Ice Age: The Meltdown." Maybe "Sky Captain." We'll discuss it, and I'm sure she'll let me know her decision!

 

[CochiseGuy]

Anyway, I forgot to order the remote. Gotta go do that now. Oh, I guess I might buy another movie or two while I'm at it.

As much as I don't like Best Buy are rarely shop there, I suggest you buy the remote there or at another local store. I bought my remote at BB for the same price as Amazon - $25. It died last night, after only 4 months. New batteries, nothing resurrects it. And it is one royal pain in the rear to try to control movie playback with that stupid toggle game controller. But, I am seriously considering selling my PS3 and going back to HD DVD only. If Best Buy won't give me a replacement remote, that could be the tipping point.

I ordered a 3 way HDMI switch from Monoprice. So I'm ready if I buy an HD DVD player next year. Just in case, you see.

Monoprice switches & cables are a great value. I used their HDMI switch for over a year until I got my HDMI receiver.