Does anybody have motion artifacts while watching sporting events on dish network?

[andyg]

hello there,

I have noticed some motion artifacts especially when watching sports live hockey. It appears that those motion artifacts are only visible when the camera is moving and not when it is steady or focused say on a particular player. It is really annoying to watch.

Does anybody notice that too?
It happens frequently for me on some channels, but especially on FSN Ohio.

Is this something I should be worried about, or is it a known issue?

thanks,
andy

 

[retorq]

About the only think I don't get motion artifacts on is the Dish logo when I turn my box off.

 

[andyg]

About the only think I don't get motion artifacts on is the Dish logo when I turn my box off.

you are very smart....but that was a serious question

what I mean is
"I am getting signal strength of between 51 - 68 on my dish network system. I never received any pixelated images even when it was slightly raining (I have not tested it yet with heavy rain). However, sometimes when I watch certain programming, especially sports like hockey, the screen appears to be a little fuzzy or have grains on it or basically not sharp enough when the images are moving, not when the picture is steady focused on one player let's say. It is hard to see the puck moving around the ice sometimes even.
"

thanks

 

[Kevinw]

Motion artifacts are generally a fault of the television not the reciever. Pixelation you can blame on a poor signal.
Display Technologies: Parts I - IV - Display Technology Shoot-Out: Part III: Digital Motion Artifacts

 

[vegassatellite]

Motion artifacts are more common during high-speed sequences on programming. This is usually the result of a level of compression that doesn't allow enough data to stream through to update the picture rapidly enough. On a slow sequence such as a news announcement, much of the picture is actually repeated over several frames. In that case, new information for each screen might not be sent and large portions of the picture which remains unchanged between frames will be sent a simple "ditto" command. So, instead of having to re-send every pixel for every frame, they send much less data.

In the case of fast action, a lot of the screen is changed every frame, especially in games like NASCAR and hockey where cameras follow cars or pucks or other high speed objects where the camera pans across an entire field rapidly. This results in data for the entire screen needing to be refreshed for every frame. From a digital perspective, this is very data intense. Programmers often have to balance channels that have lots of high-action (SPEED, NHL) with channels that have low action (TVGUIDE, Weather Channel) and send them down the same transponders to maximize the available space on each transponder. Unfortunately, some programmers will squeeze too much content onto one transponder and when a channel goes unusually high action it strains the pipe. This can happen with providers who are really pressed for bandwidth (cable) and they over compress the signals or if a channel that is normally low action suddenly goes high action and the program provider didn't account for it.

Motion artifacting is completely different from signal issues in general since motion artifacting is an issue that usually originates at the headend whereas as tiling is usually an onsite issue from site-specific trouble issues.

 

[andyg]

Motion artifacts are more common during high-speed sequences on programming. This is usually the result of a level of compression that doesn't allow enough data to stream through to update the picture rapidly enough. On a slow sequence such as a news announcement, much of the picture is actually repeated over several frames. In that case, new information for each screen might not be sent and large portions of the picture which remains unchanged between frames will be sent a simple "ditto" command. So, instead of having to re-send every pixel for every frame, they send much less data.

In the case of fast action, a lot of the screen is changed every frame, especially in games like NASCAR and hockey where cameras follow cars or pucks or other high speed objects where the camera pans across an entire field rapidly. This results in data for the entire screen needing to be refreshed for every frame. From a digital perspective, this is very data intense. Programmers often have to balance channels that have lots of high-action (SPEED, NHL) with channels that have low action (TVGUIDE, Weather Channel) and send them down the same transponders to maximize the available space on each transponder. Unfortunately, some programmers will squeeze too much content onto one transponder and when a channel goes unusually high action it strains the pipe. This can happen with providers who are really pressed for bandwidth (cable) and they over compress the signals or if a channel that is normally low action suddenly goes high action and the program provider didn't account for it.

Motion artifacting is completely different from signal issues in general since motion artifacting is an issue that usually originates at the headend whereas as tiling is usually an onsite issue from site-specific trouble issues.

hi there...well what you are saying here totally makes sense to me. But I have a question to somebody then. If satellite companies know that sports channels are very data intensive, why would not they bump up the bandwidth or reduce compressions on those specific channels? Don;t they know that it is almost impossible to watch hi action sports channels they way they set them up? I am sorry but I could care less if the weather channel has a perfect picture, but when I watch sports I want to be able to actualy see what is going on..not trying to find the ball on the screen that disappears because the the data is too much.
how can somebody instill this into the minds of programmers at Dish network??
BTW, I have never seen such problem with cable TV. I guess they understand how bandwidth and compression are so much m,ore important for sports channels than satellite tv who do not understand that.
I wish I could get one of those dish network programmers in the room with me and make him watch tennis channel and then tell me if he enjoyed it or not..or if he could understand what was going on on the court.

so what is the solution..can somebody press dish network to increase bandwidth on certain channels?

 

[EricBskiVT]

I haven't noticed that problem while watching NASCAR races on ESPN or during football games.

 

[VinceT3]

Motion artifacts are generally a fault of the television not the reciever. Pixelation you can blame on a poor signal.
Display Technologies: Parts I - IV - Display Technology Shoot-Out: Part III: Digital Motion Artifacts

I agree, I have multiple HD tvs and only one has an issue with motion.. the others are fine.. the issue is related to the amount of memory and the processing power of the components behind the scenes.. I remember reading an article that went into detail about these issues.. I think there's an HD/blu-ray dvd that will test that issue and it obviously shows the flaw of a tv.. also shows flaws in upconverting and various other problems..

 

[andyg]

I agree, I have multiple HD tvs and only one has an issue with motion.. the others are fine.. the issue is related to the amount of memory and the processing power of the components behind the scenes.. I remember reading an article that went into detail about these issues.. I think there's an HD/blu-ray dvd that will test that issue and it obviously shows the flaw of a tv.. also shows flaws in upconverting and various other problems..

I would agree 100% only if this was happening on ALL the channels. But it happens on some more than others.

 

[allargon]

I get more pixelation and macroblocking than motion artifacts. I've only seen motion artifacts via OTA sports on my bedroom LCD.

What about nasty macroblocking from fireballs while watching The Marine on Cinemax?

 

[vegassatellite]

I haven't noticed that problem while watching NASCAR races on ESPN or during football games.

ESPN is a very important channel in any system. I don't think any provider would overly compress that channel, the risk of attrition is too great. The OP was mentioning that the problem is greatest on a regional sports channel. ESPN and Speed both probably get good compression rates as they are constantly high action and national networks with high viewership.

I've seen more motion artifacting on cable than any other system. Cable is limited to 900 mhz, it won't likely ever be more than that so they have to work with the limited pipe they have.

I would call dish and complain about the motion artifacting. It's the only way they're gonna know they need to address the issue.

 

[andyg]

ESPN is a very important channel in any system. I don't think any provider would overly compress that channel, the risk of attrition is too great. The OP was mentioning that the problem is greatest on a regional sports channel. ESPN and Speed both probably get good compression rates as they are constantly high action and national networks with high viewership.

I've seen more motion artifacting on cable than any other system. Cable is limited to 900 mhz, it won't likely ever be more than that so they have to work with the limited pipe they have.

I would call dish and complain about the motion artifacting. It's the only way they're gonna know they need to address the issue.

this is strange. I never had any problems with pq of RSN (FSN Ohio) on cable..just now on dish. Does it mean that cable does not compress FSN Ohio as much as dish nwk does?

and also..if it is overcompression problem..what can dish network really do to make sure my compaint is addressed? would they start compressing it a little less?

 

[Liquidforce88]

Just so everyone knows andy does not have HD. He is having problems with SD on 25" - 27" CRT tv's.

This also seems to be only happening on the Golf channel and a FSN channel if I have read all your other posts correctly. Others have stated that they also have the problem on the Golf channel. I also have times when my local FSN will have a very poor picture, mostly on the SD channel. THis appers more to me as a problem with the signal sent to Dish. As I have seen this kind of thing OTA. The Picture from a local channel is bad, then the problem is amplified when seen on Dish.

I have reccomended that you call Dish to have somebody check to make sure there is not any connection problems with the system. That is about all you can do, other than compalin to Dish that the picture is not watchable on those channels. Maybe there is a problem that Dish is not aware of.

I really don't know what else to tell you. If it was a system wide problem there would be people on here complaining like crazy. Thats not the case, as I think you can see by looking at the boards. AS many have told you there is not a cable company that can provide a better SD picture than satellite is able to in most situations. I have installed 1000's of systems for customers that have had Comcast, Charter, Adelphia, and a few small cable systems, I just have never seen where Dish did not have at the very least a slightly better picture. Most of the time it was far better than the cable system.

Call Dish to have your system looked at. Your a new customer so it won't cost you anything. You are driving yourself crazy trying to repeak your Dish yourself, make all these posts on here. Relax and let them check it out for you.

 

[obieone]

re.

Motion artifacts are mostly caused by refresh rate of the TV. That is the reasoning behind the development of the new 120hz HDTV. I have a Sony that is 1080p 50" @ 60hz and a Toshiba 42" 1080p @ 120hz and there is no comparison in picture qty on Football games. I have artifacts on the Sony and almost none ever on the Toshiba because of the 120hz refresh rate on it.

 

[VinceT3]

I would agree 100% only if this was happening on ALL the channels. But it happens on some more than others.

high speed items like sports generally cause this more than say a movie or tv show.. some sports use 720p to help increase the number of modified frames they'll send which helps lessen the blurring effect..

My big screen does that to me sometimes, but luckly I don't watch sports so it's rarely an issue for me.

 

[VinceT3]

Motion artifacts are mostly caused by refresh rate of the TV. That is the reasoning behind the development of the new 120hz HDTV. I have a Sony that is 1080p 50" @ 60hz and a Toshiba 42" 1080p @ 120hz and there is no comparison in picture qty on Football games. I have artifacts on the Sony and almost none ever on the Toshiba because of the 120hz refresh rate on it.

Actually the refresh rate is more of a selling ploy now.. refresh rate really held true on the good ol' picture tubes, just like the interlace vs. progressive crap..

Refresh rates were when systems would have to re-put the image on the screen x number of times because the phosphers on the tube would dim.. the higher the refresh the brighter and more vivid the picture generally..

now a days it's more of a binary thing.. so pixel # 1.2 million please turn on as red.. then when the picture changes it would say pixel # 1.2 million please turn off..

I'm not sure about plasmas though, I'm not well versed on them..

 

[jbrady_39]

I only notice it while watching 1080i(CBS, NBC, HDNet, and some FSNs) broadcasts and not on 720p(ESPN, ABC, Fox, BTN)

 

[vegassatellite]

Motion artifacts are mostly caused by refresh rate of the TV. That is the reasoning behind the development of the new 120hz HDTV. I have a Sony that is 1080p 50" @ 60hz and a Toshiba 42" 1080p @ 120hz and there is no comparison in picture qty on Football games. I have artifacts on the Sony and almost none ever on the Toshiba because of the 120hz refresh rate on it.

Either way, you're watching broadcasts that are 24 frames per second (24hz). I don't know if the pulldown occurs within the TV or within the satellite receiver. Over HDMI it probably occurs in the TV which is why some claim better pictures over component vs. HDMI if the TV doesn't do the pulldown real well. In any case, since the OP is using SD CRTs, your post is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

The OP should have someone with a spectrum analyzer or at least a Super Buddy meter come out and check his bit:error ratios to see if he has unacceptable levels of data loss. Good luck getting anyone at Dish to do it though as most of the techs and probably near on 100% of TSRs are gonna say "huh?" He would be better off to hire someone locally who understands FEC.

 

[andyg]

Either way, you're watching broadcasts that are 24 frames per second (24hz). I don't know if the pulldown occurs within the TV or within the satellite receiver. Over HDMI it probably occurs in the TV which is why some claim better pictures over component vs. HDMI if the TV doesn't do the pulldown real well. In any case, since the OP is using SD CRTs, your post is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

The OP should have someone with a spectrum analyzer or at least a Super Buddy meter come out and check his bit:error ratios to see if he has unacceptable levels of data loss. Good luck getting anyone at Dish to do it though as most of the techs and probably near on 100% of TSRs are gonna say "huh?" He would be better off to hire someone locally who understands FEC.

what is FEC? I will contact dish and tell them to look at the problem. Hopefully they'll figure something out. Also....isn't there some kind of diagnostics tool on my receiver that can tell me the bit:erro ratio you are talking about?

thanks

 

[andyg]

Just so everyone knows andy does not have HD. He is having problems with SD on 25" - 27" CRT tv's.

This also seems to be only happening on the Golf channel and a FSN channel if I have read all your other posts correctly. Others have stated that they also have the problem on the Golf channel. I also have times when my local FSN will have a very poor picture, mostly on the SD channel. THis appers more to me as a problem with the signal sent to Dish. As I have seen this kind of thing OTA. The Picture from a local channel is bad, then the problem is amplified when seen on Dish.

I have reccomended that you call Dish to have somebody check to make sure there is not any connection problems with the system. That is about all you can do, other than compalin to Dish that the picture is not watchable on those channels. Maybe there is a problem that Dish is not aware of.

I really don't know what else to tell you. If it was a system wide problem there would be people on here complaining like crazy. Thats not the case, as I think you can see by looking at the boards. AS many have told you there is not a cable company that can provide a better SD picture than satellite is able to in most situations. I have installed 1000's of systems for customers that have had Comcast, Charter, Adelphia, and a few small cable systems, I just have never seen where Dish did not have at the very least a slightly better picture. Most of the time it was far better than the cable system.

Call Dish to have your system looked at. Your a new customer so it won't cost you anything. You are driving yourself crazy trying to repeak your Dish yourself, make all these posts on here. Relax and let them check it out for you.

yeah the problems are mostly on FSN ohio, all the soccer channels and the Tennis channel.
thanks..I will contact dish