Center channel speaker questions

[george99]

I need to find the right solution here. I have a 65 inch TV hanging on the wall with a mantle right below it. There is only about 2.5 to 3 inched between the bottom of the TV and the top of the mantle.
I find it amazing, but I have searched up and down the internet and I cannot find a center channel speaker bar. All the bars are multiple channels. And even most of them are too high anyway.
So I thought about maybe using 2 speakers for the center channel. I would hook them in parallel to the receiver and each would be on a side of the TV keeping it symmetrical.
However, I have heard that there can be issues with using 2 speakers for a single channel. I am using a pretty high end receiver. Denon AVR-3313CI.

Any suggestions for either the bar shaped single channel speaker or using 2 speakers?

 

[jevans64]

The center channel speaker should be timbre-matched with your front left/right speakers. This generally means that it should use the same drivers as your left/right speakers and be of the same brand and model tier. What are you currently using for your left/right? Since we are dealing with a mantle, I am assuming that your TV is above the WORST possible place a piece of heat-sensitive electronics can be -- above a fireplace. I just want to strangle every installer/interior decorator that places a TV above a fireplace. LOL

At any rate, it is going to be tough to find a center channel speaker thin enough to slide under the TV. It would have to use 2.5" drivers in order to be 3" tall. The slimmest I know of is the Definitive Technology Mythos on-wall speakers. They use 3.5" drivers and are about 4.25" tall. The only other option is to re-mount your TV and raise it up a couple of inches, which shouldn't matter since your viewing angle is extreme anyway.

 

[george99]

The center channel speaker should be timbre-matched with your front left/right speakers. This generally means that it should use the same drivers as your left/right speakers and be of the same brand and model tier. What are you currently using for your left/right? Since we are dealing with a mantle, I am assuming that your TV is above the WORST possible place a piece of heat-sensitive electronics can be -- above a fireplace. I just want to strangle every installer/interior decorator that places a TV above a fireplace. LOL

Hehe, no fireplace. I am in South Florida, we don't have those here The mantle isn't really a mantle. I just don't know the right word for it. It is basically a cabinet that sits on the floor and is 30 inches high off the ground. Right now my current center speaker is from the matching set, but it is way to big to put it under the TV. I could hang it above, but it would look very awkward.
My Left/Right speakers are on the sides of the mantle. They are floor standing speakers about 4.5 feet tall.

 

[george99]

This is the EXACT front and center speakers that I have except for the color. I have the rear ones that are shown here, but I never used them because they were too big.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Premier-Aco...95?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item335c1c0d5b

These are what I use for the rear speakers:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BOSTON-ACOU...03?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item1e771b9503

 

[jevans64]

What is the brand and what are the driver sizes? How thick is your " shelf ", for lack of a better word. Is it possible to mount a speaker TO this " shelf. "

I've seem decorative wall panels that are about 3-4" deep and about 6" thick but are tapered towards the bottom. Is THIS what you have under your TV.

 

[george99]

What is the brand and what are the driver sizes? How thick is your " shelf ", for lack of a better word. Is it possible to mount a speaker TO this " shelf. "

I've seem decorative wall panels that are about 3-4" deep and about 6" thick but are tapered towards the bottom. Is THIS what you have under your TV.

Forgive my ignorance. What is a "driver"?
As for the cabinet, it is something like this. http://www.ebay.com/itm/CTS86989-AP...rtainment_Units_TV_Stands&hash=item337fcff8a2

However, the dimensions on mine are 108 inches wide x 31 inches high x 22 inches deep.

 

[jevans64]

Is the cabinet where you keep your A/V receiver, etc?

I'd try to use the existing center channel as it would be the best match for the rest of the set.

Are you able to move the TV up to where you need it without removing/reinstalling the mount. The ones I've seen are on rails that can be adjusted up or down a few inches.

" Drivers " refer to the speaker drivers, which I already know from the ebay link you posted. Your center channel should have the same 1" and 6.5" drivers that are in your main speakers. The goal here is for the sound ( like a car passing left to right ) to NOT change in timbre as the sound moves from Left Wide to Left to Center to Right to Right Wide if you have Wide speakers in an 11.x setup.

 

[george99]

Actually, the receiver is not there. It is in a closet about 30 feet away. I ran wires thru my ceiling to the closet.
I can't make the TV higher because I would need a neck brace from looking up at it all the time. Even if I wanted to move it, I couldn't, since the TV is so damn big, it uses the holes at the ends of the bracket, so I can't move the brackets up or down.
How bad would it be to use another brand? I know my AVR has a setup which asks for speaker sizes, and it measures all the sounds during the setup. Would that help at all?

 

[jevans64]

The speaker sizes in the Denon's menu just refer to whether those speakers are full-range or not so the Denon's internal crossover can be activated. They have nothing to do with the physical size of the speaker as there are some small bookshelf speakers that can dig pretty low even crossed at 50 Hz. Audyssey will just measure speaker distance and trim levels and set accordingly. Audyssey will also adjust frequency bands to adjust for any room reflections, etc. It won't be able to compensate enough to go from 6.5" drivers to 3.5" drivers in a center channel. I know quite a few folks that run 6.5" drivers in their mains and 5.25" drivers in their center and it doesn't sound too bad. I have an 11.2 setup comprised of 44 drivers with 37 of them being matched 1" and 6.5" drivers with the other 7 being sub-woofer drivers.

The only other option would be to put the center channel IN the cabinet and remove the doors. My center weighs 60 pounds, so it is on a short stand in front of my TV rack about 8" off the floor.

 

[george99]

The speaker sizes in the Denon's menu just refer to whether those speakers are full-range or not so the Denon's internal crossover can be activated. They have nothing to do with the physical size of the speaker as there are some small bookshelf speakers that can dig pretty low even crossed at 50 Hz. Audyssey will just measure speaker distance and trim levels and set accordingly. Audyssey will also adjust frequency bands to adjust for any room reflections, etc. It won't be able to compensate enough to go from 6.5" drivers to 3.5" drivers in a center channel. I know quite a few folks that run 6.5" drivers in their mains and 5.25" drivers in their center and it doesn't sound too bad. I have an 11.2 setup comprised of 44 drivers with 37 of them being matched 1" and 6.5" drivers with the other 7 being sub-woofer drivers.

The only other option would be to put the center channel IN the cabinet and remove the doors. My center weighs 60 pounds, so it is on a short stand in front of my TV rack about 8" off the floor.

I was thinking about putting it in the cabinet. What about a 2 speaker setup for the center channel? The center speaker I have now has 2 drivers in it. They are 6.5 inch each.

 

[jevans64]

I was thinking about putting it in the cabinet. What about a 2 speaker setup for the center channel? The center speaker I have now has 2 drivers in it. They are 6.5 inch each.

You could probably do it but you'd still have to keep them pretty close together to get the right imaging. You'll probably have to run them in series since I don't think the Denon can handle a 4 Ohm load with two 8 Ohm speakers wired parallel. That means you would need a ton of power for the center channel.

Actually, the D'appolito array ( mid-woofer, tweeter, mid-woofer ) isn't the best design for a center channel anyway. They are that way because it is more pleasing to the eye symmetry-wise. The best arrangements are three speakers of the same type across the front.

Your Denon should create a " phantom center " if you choose not to use a real center channel. It essentially mixes the dialog into the left/right speakers. Some people actually prefer a Phantom Center since the dialog isn't pinpointed at the center of the picture. If you have the real center channel speaker you could temporarily set the center up and see if it makes a difference. I only notice a slight difference between a real center and phantom center but I'm running HUGE tower speakers being fed by a 400 watt per channel external amp. Running strictly off the receiver's amps may have a bigger impact since the Denon is probably only good for 70 watts per channel with 7 channels driven.

 

[jayn_j]

The phantom center isn't really a good solution. It basically sends center info to both main speakers. The problem with that is you end up with a very narrow sweet spot where the sound appears to come out of the TV. Move a foot either way from that spot and the center sound will appear to come out of either the left or right speaker. Sometimes you are stuck with that, but it is best to avoid it if you can.

I agree with jevans in that you really need to try and use a center speaker of the same brand and series as the mains. But that often leaves a lot of room for creativity as there are often several speakers in the series to work with.

I have created setups in the past with two center speakers. It works OK, but there is a problem with introducing audio nulls at certain frequencies. I don't wish to sound too geeky or purist, but this could be a non-problem or a big deal depending on separation, frequency of the signal and position. Basically think of moire' patterns when you overlay to patterns with fine lines. The same thing happens in audio, and you can have situations where some frequencies re-enforce each other and other frequencies cancel each other out. If it is happening, the best bet is to move the speakers around a bit and see if it feels better. As a general rule this problem is worst the further apart the two centers are. In addition, if the two centers are so far apart that they are now closer to the mains than the center of the screen, you may as well use the phantom center mode because it will sound about the same, with exactly the same problems.

 

[budda]

I need to find the right solution here. I have a 65 inch TV hanging on the wall with a mantle right below it. There is only about 2.5 to 3 inched between the bottom of the TV and the top of the mantle.
I find it amazing, but I have searched up and down the internet and I cannot find a center channel speaker bar. All the bars are multiple channels. And even most of them are too high anyway.
So I thought about maybe using 2 speakers for the center channel. I would hook them in parallel to the receiver and each would be on a side of the TV keeping it symmetrical.
However, I have heard that there can be issues with using 2 speakers for a single channel. I am using a pretty high end receiver. Denon AVR-3313CI.

Any suggestions for either the bar shaped single channel speaker or using 2 speakers?

I use this one it is 3 inch's tall. Bose VCS 10 Center CH speaker. I use two. The room is large, I run one at the TV and one at the back of the room helps so I can here the dialog better for non event viewing and listening. There are much better speakers out there but I liked the low profile.