Bullseye feed horn hook up w/ only 2 coaxial cables one c, one ku

[egg2004]

How exactly do i hook up a bullseye feed horn that would replace my exsisting co roter?

There was an old thread related to my quetion. It started out with "ordered a dual C and ku feedhorn", but you could never tell exactly how it ended. Also, i wasnt a 100% clear on everything that was mentioned.

My existing system is as follows:

* I have a dual ku/c band coroter feed horn with 2 lines (one for each) coming from the dish into the house.
* inside i split these lines using spltters and a disecq switch in order to
hook them up to 2 recievers.
* I have a 4 DTV reciever and a pansat 300a receiver. The Pansat is a
slave to the 4dtv.

Heres my real question: Since the bullseye has 4 lnbs (2 ku/ 2 c) 1 each or each polarity. And, since i only have a single line feed coming from out side (1 for ku and 1 for c) can i simply combine the 2 outputs from the ku-lnbs into the one ku coaxial line using a splitter, and combine the 2 outputs from the C lnbs into one c-band coaxial line using another splitter (i.e. 2 lines will be coming from the dish (1 c/ 1 ku with combined polarity). I'm thinking that that would be all i need to do? I would then leave the existing process inside alone (i.e. the splitting of the 2 lines using splitters and a disecq switch that are currently used to hook up the recievers).

Is anyone familiar doing this? Am i on the right page or am i way off?

Please try to keep it none engineeric.. because i am not an engineer. I am just simple hobbiest.

Thank you in advance for any and all help.

 

[egg2004]

How exactly do i hook up a bullseye feed horn that would replace my exsisting co roter?
There was an old thread related to my quetion. It started out with "ordered a dual C and ku feedhorn", but you could never tell exactly how it ended. Also, i wasnt a 100% clear on everything that was mentioned.
My existing system is as follows:
* I have a dual ku/c band coroter feed horn with 2 lines (one for each) coming from the dish into the house.
* inside i split these lines using spltters and a disecq switch in order to
hook them up to 2 recievers.
* I have a 4 DTV reciever and a pansat 300a receiver. The Pansat is a
slave to the 4dtv.
Heres my real question: Since the bullseye has 4 lnbs (2 ku/ 2 c) 1 each or each polarity. And, since i only have a single line feed coming from out side (1 for ku and 1 for c) can i simply combine the 2 outputs from the ku-lnbs into the one ku coaxial line using a splitter, and combine the 2 outputs from the C lnbs into one c-band coaxial line using another splitter (i.e. 2 lines will be coming from the dish (1 c/ 1 ku with combined polarity). I'm thinking that that would be all i need to do? I would then leave the existing process inside alone (i.e. the splitting of the 2 lines using splitters and a disecq switch that are currently used to hook up the recievers).
Is anyone familiar doing this? Am i on the right page or am i way off?
Please try to keep it none engineeric.. because i am not an engineer. I am just simple hobbiest.
Thank you in advance for any and all help.




basically, can i take the 2 lines for the ku lnbs and combine them into one incoming line and do the same for the cband lnbs, leaving everything else as is?

 

[dougbrown]

I'm not 100% on this, and I'm sure some one else will clarify, but I believe you can put a 4 way diseqc switch out at the feedhorn and your receivers will be able to select the correct lnb. I'm pretty sure that the 4dtv is compatible with diseqc. That would only need one line coming into the house.

 

[Anole]

up to four receivers:

One of several ways would be to put two 2x4 mutltiswitches at the dish.
On the first switch, the two inputs hook to your two C-band LNBs.
On the second switch, the two inputs hook to your two Ku-band LNBs.
Each multiswitch has four outputs.
Hook one output from the C-multiswitch to one coax, and one output from the Ku multiswitch to the other coax.

To add more receivers, you'd need another pair of coaxes from the house to the multiswitches.
And those coaxes would hook to unused outputs on the same multiswitches.

edit: I guess we need to add this configuration to the Switch FAQ... it's not simple, but it's becoming more common.

 

[1captain]

The main purpose of a ortho feed is db gain, an switch abilty to multable receivers, an yes you can set it up with 2x4 multi-switches, an you're 4dtv will work it both on C & Ku just fine with 2 coaxes, an no coax for the fta. but now you are putting a attenuation factor of that switch in, along with the quality of the multi-switches that you are using, added along with the added strain of powering up all 4 lnbs with 1 or 2 receivers.

plus you will like the gain of a ortho over a co-rotor, their is a lot of loss in a co-rotor that most people don't realize, an a orto is top dog in my book. take you're time setting it up on you're dish an fine tunning it will greatly pay off when tunning week feeds in.

also on another note, you did not say anything about power inserters, this is a must with a ortho feed with you Vertical lnbs, the ku-lnbs are mover for giving than a c-band lnb is on low voltage, but in time it will take its tole running on low voltage, they are designed to work on 18+ volts dc.

now with a 4dtv not that much on ku with it, so you could use the 4dtv for c-band only with this set up, the way Anole described, or loop out of you're fta receiver to the in on the ku-input on the 4dtv, an let you're fta receiver select ku when it was needed. now this way you would not need to run more coaxes, an it will work. an a 4dtv will work thrue a 4x8 multi-switch only on the regular ports, will not work on the 22khz port.

now I have 2-10-footers now both with Ortho feeds (Chaperral Bullseye) on them, they are only for fta, an this is the best way that I have came up to have them wired with less attenuation factor. 4-coaxes from dish to panel in home (have a big pannel inside wall with all coaxes go to in home), their is 4x8 zinwell powered multi-switch, along with a Channel Master power supply running DC voltage on servo wires back up to noise cone to a pair of PicoMacom power inserters, an these PicoMacom have found to have less lose than any powered device that have used in the past. now that covers the wiring to the dish.

now because I am so concerned about signal loss here, on the fta receivers that run this dishes have no disqec switch in line, that the main receiver goes to only the 4x8 multi-switch, c & ku controled all on 1 coax. but do have other receivers that have a disqec switches off these dishes, use them for scanning the satellites.

but in all egg I would pull 2 more coaxes from you're dish to a area that you can put you're multi-switch & disqec switches so you can have easy access in case you ever change things in the future, it will be more work now, but latter down the line you will like it for the easy of adding another receiver an so on.

Good luck on getting the ortho set up you will like it a lot, they are costly but well worth it on tunning in week stuff.

 

[Anole]

modified multiswitch:

Here's a discussion from last year, where Linuxman tried power inserters.
He then modified a powered 2x4 multiswitch to provide the higher voltage to his Vertical LNB.
Makes for good reading.

Regardless of mods or not, I like the controlled environment of using multiswitches with their own power source.
Just takes a lot of variables out of the equations.

 

[kirara386]

Switch Diagram

I took several minutes and drew up a diagram of a one dish, orthomode, C/KU setup. Feel free to correct me if I got anything wrong.

 

[ACRadio]

I took several minutes and drew up a diagram of a one dish, orthomode, C/KU setup. Feel free to correct me if I got anything wrong.

Instead of using 2 seperate switches I use a Spaun SMS5802 powered switch. These can be had used on eBay for a fraction of what they cost retail and they work well.

Another issue is going beyond having power inserters for the vertical LNB's and having power inserters for all LNB's. Granted that when selecting the horizontal polarity the switch sends 18 volts to operate the LNB and it is happy. But when the vertical polarity is selected and the power inserter is responsible for making the vertical LNB happy, the horizontal LNB is receiving the same voltage as the vertical would get without a power inserter, which is 13 volts, and even though the horizontal LNB isn't being used at the time it still is being operated with low voltage and over time this can cause failure. Spending an extra 30 bucks and having power inserters for all LNB's will prevent a problem down the road. I know that my LNB's cost much more than the 30 bucks for the inserters.

 

[kirara386]

My main reason for using 2, 2x4 switches was for expandability down the line, but if you're only interested in having one dish and not incorporating another dish then using a 4x4 switch with a built in 22KHz tone is an option to simplify the configuration.

I forget sometimes that the majority of people are probably only planning on having one such dish. I made the switch layout above from a simplified version of what I was planning on doing...Having 2 BUDs...one for the eastern side of the arch and one for the western.

Also, a good point on the Horizontal only receiving 13v when the Vertical is being used. I did not take that into consideration.

 

[Anole]

Every time I say "use a 4x4", some BUD guy points out how unfriendly that is to Analog and 4DTV receivers.
I guess they're real happy with a separate C-band input and a Ku-band input.
But, they mostly won't run any switches; certainly not a 22khz switch in a 4x4!
So, in deference to those folks, I described using two 2x4's, above. -
edit: oh, and the OP asked for two cables!

I'd probably find a nice powered 4x4, myself.

Speaking of powered, I consulted with Linuxman (of the modified 2x4 multiswitch saga above), and am assured that BOTH his LNBs receive 18 volts at all times.
I recall discussing voltages when he did the mod, and even asked if he'd like to raise it a bit.
Apparently, 24v wasn't called for.

 

[1captain]

Every time I say "use a 4x4", some BUD guy points out how unfriendly that is to Analog and 4DTV receivers.
I guess they're real happy with a separate C-band input and a Ku-band input.
But, they mostly won't run any switches; certainly not a 22khz switch in a 4x4!
So, in deference to those folks, I described using two 2x4's, above. -
edit: oh, and the OP asked for two cables!

I'd probably find a nice powered 4x4, myself.

Speaking of powered, I consulted with Linuxman (of the modified 2x4 multiswitch saga above), and am assured that BOTH his LNBs receive 18 volts at all times.
I recall discussing voltages when he did the mod, and even asked if he'd like to raise it a bit.
Apparently, 24v wasn't called for.

here I have the ku-band on the 22khz ports, an I can hook up a 4dtv to a switch (4x8), an they work on C-band only with no problem, but will not look at ku on the 22khz part of that switch, don't know of any of the older c-band receivers that will work 22khz. an what is up on ku digtal & analog is slim as of today, but their still is a feed from time to time but not that much compared to 5 years ago or longer.

On you're edit: "as for 2 cables" either a 4x4 or 4x8, an use old sevro wire to power the switch, 1 cable to 4dtv c-band, the 2nd cable to fta (no need for disqec switch), an if 4dtv wants to look at ku band, loop out of fta to ku in port on 4dtv, an then the fta just needs to select a ku band satellite an the 4dtv will have control of c & ku with only 2 coaxs an only 1 multi-switch, but the fta receiver will need to select V or H with ku only for it to work with only 2 cables.

now as Linux did with that mod is great, as long as they maintain their voltage when both lnb are powered up, an with a 4x2 switch it should be. now here with these 4x8 that I use, I may try that mod with 1, but I don't have high hopes that it will maintain a steady 18+ volts on all 4 of the lnbs, from their power supply, just don't think that they have enough guts in their PS to run all 4 at 18+ volt, but may give it a try any way.

now with this style power inserter that I use got to be 15+ years old, had them laying around here. an the CM power supply I run them with is a 1200ma supply for a ota, an it outputs 22.8 volts with no load, an with 1 lnb powered 20.9 volts, an 2 lnbs powerd 18.86 volts, an this was with norsat 8515 lnbs, the norsats seem to take a little more power to run than the CalAmps that I got on the other dish. now their is no voltage drop in these power inserter when they are not hook to a lnb, like if I have 22.88 out of the supply, up at the dish have 22.88, then as the lnbs are hook up then voltage starts to drop, never tryed 4 with 1 supply to see how low it will pull it down, after all it only 1.2amp supply.

but either way a power inserter or the switch mod that Linux did, is a must to have when using this type of switching with a ortho feed. like AC said good lnbs are not cheep to keep replacing them on a timely factor by under powering them.

 

[egg2004]

Bull eye feed horn

Thank you everyone for the info, but i can only follow about 1/2 of what was said. First of all what is a power inverter (or inserter) and what do i need it for. Also, what is a 4x4, 4x8, 2x4 switch. Are these simply combining 2 lines into 1? Whats the difference between 2x4, 4x4, 4x8? Are these simple inline splitters or in my case combining multiple lines.


This is starting to sound alot more complicated than i was orinally thinking. Either that, or it just sounds complicated be cause of the lingo.

Maybe this will help. I currently have the 4dtv as the master and the panam sat (fta) as the slave using 1 diseq switch and 2 spliiters (as explained in my origianal post). That is the limit to my undstanding of all this, so maybe someone can just build upon that.

Thank you

 

[Lak7]

what is a 4x4, 4x8, 2x4 switch

A "4x4" switch is 4 LNB (single polarity) in By(x) 4 Receivers out.
You would connect the C Band LNBs to the 22KHz Off side, and the Ku to the 22KHz On Side. Then run dedicated cables to the 4DTV and Pansat. You will not be able to get Ku on the 4DTV. A "Power Inserter" is needed because those type on LNBs are designed to use 18+volts all the time, unlike Little Dish LNBFs that use 13v / 18v.

Here is a Thread that Anole has done....
http://www.satelliteguys.us/fta-mpeg2-faqs/134124-switch-setups-simplified.html

 

[egg2004]

Thank you Lak7 (and others), this helps. Lak7 based upon what you said, i should only need 1 new 2X4 swich to combine the 2ku/2c wires coming from the LNBS into 1ku/1c band wire. This is what i originally thought. I would then just leave everything else as is. I am aware that the 4DTV WILL NOT pick up KU.

When i say everything else would remain the same, i mean everything on the other end. On the other end, I would still be using the existing 2X4 swith to do the reverse of above (1ku/1c wire into 2 ku/2 cband wires). That is 1ku/1c wire would go into a disecq switch and the output from the disecq switch (i.e 1 line) would coninue to go into the pansat reciever and the other 1ku/1c wires would go into the 4 dtv receiver.

Do i understand this correctly? Do i finally have it right?

Thank you

 

[Lak7]

Just like this.......

 

[egg2004]

Bulls eye feed horn.

Thanks LAK7. Not exaclly, There are 2 issues. In the picture, everything upto and including the switch would remain out at the dish (in the horn) and the two lines (in blue) would go from the dish into the house and to the receivers.

The other issue is the 4dtv receiver expects 2 inputs (one for ku and one for c) not one input. Since at this point i only have 2 lines , i'm thinking i also need another switch or splitter in order to accomidate the 4dtv receiver. One of the lines should work as your picture shows.

**** NEVER MIND *****

I just realized that what you sent should work fine as is since i'm not going to get ku on the 4dv anyway. I can just hook the one line to the c-band input.

Thank you.....Thank you

I got it!!!! This will work.

 

[Lak7]

I can just hook the one line to the c-band input.

Just make sue you have the C Band to the 22KHz "OFF" side of the switch.

 

[egg2004]

I finally got everything i needed for this feedhorn and installed in using the 4x4 multiswitch. The problem is i am now only picking up C-band signals and not all of them. I appears that only signals from the one c band lnb are getting through to the recievers. For example, i am picking up vertical signals on F1R or horizontal signals on the nearby AMC1. I hooked up the multiswich (4X4) like the one illistartion that Lak7 supplied. Does anyone have any ideas why this would be? Is there a trick to placing the feed horn in order pick up both horizontal and veritcal signals? I simply inserted it and tightend the Allen (hex) nut holding it in place. If it centered correctly then the only thing i can think of is the postioning? Is it possble this is a result of a bad multiswitch?

Thank you

 

[ACRadio]

What is your settings for each type satellite...C and KU?

 

[1captain]

this is the way I tune mine in here an it is easy but need 2 people is needed to do it.
1st drive you're dish to the due south (I use a angle finder to put it right on the $, or 0 degrees).
2nd I pull the bolt that holds the elevation adjustment (this is where 2nd person is needed), not the treaded rod but the bolt that attaches the treaded rod to the mount. an let the dish swing down to the vertical position so you can reach the feed easy an saft.
3rd with you're angle finder an put it on the Horz wave guide where you're lnb will bolt. set it also to 0-degrees, an DO NOT change you're F/D setting wile doing this.
an last have the other person raise the dish back up an reinstall the bolt on the elevation rod.

now if you're dish is not already tune to the max would sujest doing this first an rechecking it when it is already tuned for F/L & F/D, an on the ark. an if you're dish is already tuned you are done, should never need to change it again. also check when you tighten up the bolt that holds the ortho that it is not chock in the scalar ring, I use the Dewalt Lazer level on end of the ku feed throat to check it after I tighten up the ortho, an some times that red dote is hard to see in day light.