811 SD Picture Quality

[rjallen]

Today, I was talking with an executive CSR rep. This guy is extremely knowledgeable and visits this site from time to time. We were talking about 811 issues and he asked about my picture clarity under SD. I told him. unless, the receiver was set to 480p, the quality sucked.

He was not surprised and told me the engineers were dismissing user complaints about SD picture quality by saying users were simply seeing the difference between HD and SD. :shocked

Well, there is a difference. My 510 gives are better picture than the 811 UNLESS the 811 is set to 480p. It is so much of a hassel to change the 811 from 1080i to 480p, I just use my 510.

If you are dissatisfied with 811 SD picture quality, I urge you to tell E*, perhaps we can convince the ivory tower engineers a problem does exist. Either allow users to switch resolution with the HD/SD button on the remote or allow users to set different default values for HD and SD.

Perhaps I should ask you if you think there's a problem

Rick

 

[Broadband Lab Rat]

My 811 picture quality on SD satellite content, when delivered to my Samsung 50" DLP set using DVI at either 1080i or 720p, looks better to me than S video of the same program to the same DLP set from my 508 receiver. I have never switched to 480p when watching this material since it already looks better than the S video signal from the 508.

What make and model display are you using?

 

[rad]

Have you taken a look at NTSC OTA SD channels via the 811? Composit, S-Video, Component it all looks bad.

 

[Broadband Lab Rat]

Have you taken a look at NTSC OTA SD channels via the 811? Composit, S-Video, Component it all looks bad.

Yes, I agree OTA analog all looks bad to me on my 811... but I don't think that's what he was refering to... especially since he was compairing to a different receiver without OTA capability.

 

[Carl B]

My 811 picture quality on SD satellite content, when delivered to my Samsung 50" DLP set using DVI at either 1080i or 720p, looks better to me than S video of the same program to the same DLP set from my 508 receiver. I have never switched to 480p when watching this material since it already looks better than the S video signal from the 508.

My sentiments exactly, I also have the 50" Sammy DLP driven by an 811 through DVI, but I compare it to using my 2700 before the 811 arrived. The 2700 did provide a somewhat brighter picture (811 darkness issue), but looked like a blur compared to the 811. Some of my SD now looks like 480p or SD scaled to 720p. Only a few SD sources are less than good and these are just the old "garbage in - garbage out" issue.

However, I have to agree that NTSC analog through the 811 via DVI is awful. I simply split my antenna input and send one directly to the Sammy's NTSC tuner, where it gets the best processing. I only use the 811 to process the digital ATSC inputs, which it does quite well as far as picture quality is concerned. In fact, OTA DTV through the 811 beats the same channel via E* hands down. E* is clipping the signals so bad during compression that PQ has suffered over the 4 years I've been with them.

 

[rjallen]

I don't get OTA channels so I am talking about sat channels.

I have a 47" Panasonic RPTV. Its a PT-47WX53. A 2003 model. Its top of the line for RPTV. It automatically up converts SD signals to 1080i and I think that may be the problem for, at least, these sets.

I would like all of you to try an experiment. Try 480p with SD and compare. I think it may standout to me because I have a 510 and it puts out excellant SD PQ. I can flip back and forth.

On my set there is a big difference and I think there are a lot of you that would see a change for the better on 480p. I just want the 811 to switch between resolutions without going through 3 menus.

Rick Allen

 

[yrac]

I just want the 811 to switch between resolutions without going through 3 menus.
Rick Allen

I wish E* would add a "Native" resolution feature to the 811 for the component and DVI outputs. Where 480i is displayed as 480p, and 720p and 1080i are displayed natively.

 

[RJS]

The techs tried to give me the same story about "it's just because you get used to HD and it makes SD look bad. That may be a little bit true, to be honest but the SD is still worse than the picture I got with my 508.

 

[Kevinw]

I may be re- hashing, but from reading some of the above post PQ stories seem to conflict.
I get great PQ using the 811 viweing anything through the component outs. I do not like the stretch modes of the 811 and would prefer to use my tv's. My tv does not allow me to stretch HD feeds. The standard programming converted to 1080i looks fine if you like black bars on the sides.

I have tried the switch between 480p and 10801 and prefer to leave it on 1080i

Now standard programming viewd using the S-vidoe or composite outs is horrible. extremely dark. I have had a 301 and a 508 hooked up at the same time as the 811 to compare.

 

[rad]

I get great PQ using the 811 viweing anything through the component outs.

Just curious, have you tried tuning in an over the air NTSC, non-digital, station via the 811's built in tuner? If you haven't, try it and see if you still say that the picture looks OK.

 

[ROLLTIDE]

My SD looks like crap on my 811 useing the DVI connection

 

[Kevinw]

Just curious, have you tried tuning in an over the air NTSC, non-digital, station via the 811's built in tuner? If you haven't, try it and see if you still say that the picture looks OK.

I have and it looks the same if I ran the antenna direct to the tuner of my TV. Snowy ..On the other hand I never bother watching the NTSC OTA stations because I subscribe to locals or watch the digital version, But then again I am not sure why it matters. Were we not all talking about how programming from DISH looks like?

 

[iKramerica]

my guess is that your tv is the answer.

when showing 480p, it is being fed a deinterlaced signal from the dish, but not scaled. then, your TV is scaling it to 1080i, and doing a nice job it sounds. But when you feed it the signal from the dish at 1080i (or 720p), the dish is scaling it. Your TV may just have a better scaler! So when you feed it a 480i signal from your 510, your TV is again scaling it to 1080i, and since it has a better scaler, it looks better.

Solution? well, why not hook up both Dish outputs? since the 811 has dual active outputs (HD and SD), just hook the HD signal up to an HDTV input on the tv and leave it set to 1080i, and the SD output to a different nonHD SVideo input (which can only be 480i). Then you only need to choose the source from your remote to switch signals. If I had an 811 (rather than a 6000) this is what I would do...

 

[iKramerica]

looking at your tv model specs, it is likely even simpler than I stated.

your tv is a CRT, so it probably isn't scaling the image at all. if it gets a 480i, it just deinterlaces it to 480p and projects it with 525 lines. If it gets a 480p, it just projects it at 525 lines. If it gets a 1080i, it just projects it at 1080/60Hz. So, any time you don't scale an image, you don't add artifacts. You are watching the "native" signal in all cases.

By making the 811 internally scale the SD 480i image to 1080i, it is adding artifacts and softness, which a CRT HDTV will show in full glory.

Readers who have a DLP or LCD will likely see not see much difference with internal 811 scaling or scaling from their display, because most displays don't have great scalers inside. Some will be slightly better than the 811, some slightly worse. An outboard scalar of any real quality is pricey, and even then, they don't do a super job on MPEG2 signals of spotty quality. And since DLP and LCD must always convert a signal to the native res of the unit, scaling won't be avoidable. The answer is to just use the best scaler you have, and you can easily test this.

So, still do like I said, and be happy you have a CRT, which has the best solution for HDTV during these transition years. Once scaling is done at the point of broadcast with million dollar equipment, it won't matter. But until then, a CRT is most versatile.

 

[rad]

I have and it looks the same if I ran the antenna direct to the tuner of my TV. Snowy ..On the other hand I never bother watching the NTSC OTA stations because I subscribe to locals or watch the digital version, But then again I am not sure why it matters. Were we not all talking about how programming from DISH looks like?

I thought we were talking about the 811 and how it performs. While you might not want to watch NTSC OTA stations there are some markets where Dish doesn't carry all the locals. In Chicago Dish does not carry WCIU-TV, which carries some of the Cubs, Sox and college sports games. Now WCIU does have a digital station, but they decided to violate the rules for using PSIP to assign channels and are using channel 1, which the 811 uses for controlling the video inputs. So if you want to have a single STB for all your video, which the 811 is supposed to be, we need to tune in channel 26 NTSC analog, which the 811 handles very poorly.

As I said, you might not care but someone else in the Chicago area, that is insterested, ought to know about this gotcha.

 

[rjallen]

looking at your tv model specs, it is likely even simpler than I stated.

your tv is a CRT, so it probably isn't scaling the image at all. if it gets a 480i, it just deinterlaces it to 480p and projects it with 525 lines. If it gets a 480p, it just projects it at 525 lines. If it gets a 1080i, it just projects it at 1080/60Hz. So, any time you don't scale an image, you don't add artifacts. You are watching the "native" signal in all cases.

By making the 811 internally scale the SD 480i image to 1080i, it is adding artifacts and softness, which a CRT HDTV will show in full glory.

Readers who have a DLP or LCD will likely see not see much difference with internal 811 scaling or scaling from their display, because most displays don't have great scalers inside. Some will be slightly better than the 811, some slightly worse. An outboard scalar of any real quality is pricey, and even then, they don't do a super job on MPEG2 signals of spotty quality. And since DLP and LCD must always convert a signal to the native res of the unit, scaling won't be avoidable. The answer is to just use the best scaler you have, and you can easily test this.

So, still do like I said, and be happy you have a CRT, which has the best solution for HDTV during these transition years. Once scaling is done at the point of broadcast with million dollar equipment, it won't matter. But until then, a CRT is most versatile.

Thanks for the explanation. You rsuggestion about using SD outputs will work but, with my 510 I have enough cables. I may install an S-video when Dish works out those problems.

I was under the illusion even SD would look better going thru the Component Video outputs. Guess I was wrong- but it does look at least as good under 480p so I still vote for an easier way to change resolutions on the fly.

Rick

 

[Kevinw]

RAD,
Now I understand your position regarding NTSC. I still question if the 811 is at fault for that. I lived in the Chicago area for 12 years and was never able to use an antenna with much success in either Park Forest or Batavia.
Wasn't poor reception of OTA the reason for the invention of cable in the first place. The 811 has many faults but crappy reception of analog can only be blamed on mutlipath and every thing else inherent in poor reception of standard broadcast.
Try plugging the antenna directly into your TV avoiding the 811 and see if reception is any better.

 

[rad]

RAD,
Now I understand your position regarding NTSC. I still question if the 811 is at fault for that. I lived in the Chicago area for 12 years and was never able to use an antenna with much success in either Park Forest or Batavia.
Wasn't poor reception of OTA the reason for the invention of cable in the first place. The 811 has many faults but crappy reception of analog can only be blamed on mutlipath and every thing else inherent in poor reception of standard broadcast.
Try plugging the antenna directly into your TV avoiding the 811 and see if reception is any better.

Kevin, my 811 is long gone, I'm now on D*. It was the 811, I had a discussion with one of the 811's engineers before I cancelled E* and he was aware of the problem with the NTSC quality and wasn't sure how they would fix it. Thanks - Rick

 

[Broadband Lab Rat]

Try plugging the antenna directly into your TV avoiding the 811 and see if reception is any better.

I have to agree that the 811 messes up analog ota at my house. I normally use my 811 ota for digital only, but I tried the analog OTA just to see, and yes analog OTA here tuned by the 811 and output over component and dvi is clearly messed up... Yes, my analog OTA reception is fine when tuned by other receivers here.

 

[JoeSp]

My sentiments exactly, I also have the 50" Sammy DLP driven by an 811 through DVI, but I compare it to using my 2700 before the 811 arrived. The 2700 did provide a somewhat brighter picture (811 darkness issue), but looked like a blur compared to the 811. Some of my SD now looks like 480p or SD scaled to 720p. Only a few SD sources are less than good and these are just the old "garbage in - garbage out" issue.

However, I have to agree that NTSC analog through the 811 via DVI is awful. I simply split my antenna input and send one directly to the Sammy's NTSC tuner, where it gets the best processing. I only use the 811 to process the digital ATSC inputs, which it does quite well as far as picture quality is concerned. In fact, OTA DTV through the 811 beats the same channel via E* hands down. E* is clipping the signals so bad during compression that PQ has suffered over the 4 years I've been with them.

Who cares about analog--it is going the way of the black & white broadcasts. This is the 1960's all over again only this time the switch is to HD! If your local stations are not in the digital age yet you should start letter writing to your local stations about not doing digital-- not gripe because the 811 is lousy at analog delivery. It was designed for HD digital not 480i analog. After you go past 36" and head to the larger screens an analog picture is going to look bad no matter what you do period! Long live HD!!!