3D slowly dying?

JamesJ

AKA Stuart628
Original poster
Supporting Founder
Jul 21, 2004
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Akron (Cleveland), Oh
Okay it could just be me, but I am not seeing 3D tv's being pushed anymore, and the 3D releases seems to be decreasing as well, heck walmart only had 3 copies of iron man 3 in 3D and that was about it, this is usually a walmart that pushes this stuff. Is it just my area or what are you seeing?
 
I dont see it. Most tv's have 3D built in, kinda like 1080p, at some point the push had to die off. Now they will be ramming 2160p down our throats :) . As far as upcoming releases, there are quite a few I plan on seeing that arent conversions. Thats what I like to see being made, native 3D films.
 
I just had 4 movies this week. Aboout 10 more on preorder. Just moving on to the next big thing. Walmart and Target, at least in my area, never had very many copies of 3D titles, or all titles. BB, Amazon, etc. all carry everything.

S~
 
I do dislike when we get on too many 3D cartoon runs, they seem to come in spurts. I see a lot of missed opportunities for 3D, like Oblivion. Same guy did Tron Legacy, Oblivion would have rocked even more with some Imax 3D.

Ill have the new Star Trek 3D soon, even though its a conversion I rely on reviews for conversions whether to 3D or not. Man of Steel for example, after reading the reviews, will be purchased on 2D.
 
Oblivion was a great movie. would have been really cool in 3D...maybe its just my area then, but it seems like I am seeing a lot less of the 3D stuff.
 
I personally dont look at anything other than planned releases. As long as there are a good amount (40+ in 2012, 40+ in 2013 and already like 13 Ive seen for 2014) I feel confident. I dont look locally for purchases, I mainly rent online of buy from Amazon. B&M stores are dying anyways.
 
Here Gravity is playing in 2D on one screen with 3 times. The 3D version is playing on three screens.

S~
 
I do not think 3D is dying. Instead I think Hollywood has come to realize that filming or post processing to make 3D is not going to improve a movie. I think the public has caught on too. 3D is something that should enhance a movie, if the movie is not helped by it, it should be 2D.

Making a movie 3D just to boost ticket prices is no longer tolerated by the movie going public.
 
Many pooh pooh 3D when it is a digitally rendered process from a 2D shoot. While in the old days 3D conversion was a cheaply made extrusion process that gave a completely unrealistic look, the modern digital 3D rendering is quite different both in the technology and result. Compared to using a 3D twin camera rig optimized for the scene in both lens separation and convergence angle, the use of a single 3D camera setting suffers a couple flaws that just cannot be corrected. One is for any given interaxial setting, the entire scene has to be shot with that compromised setting and when the scene is very large, a miniaturization defect is the result of the single twin camera shoot. In digital 3D rendering, the scene can be optimized throughout it's physical depth range which avoids the miniaturization look of the scene. A 3D digital rendering is a 2D to 3D conversion where each scene is painstakingly deconstructed into each component and depth optimized in an artistic visual way. The accuracy of the scene is a direct function of the time and effort put into the deconstruction process and no longer limited by the technology as is the simple conversion process.

It would be a mistake to arbitrarily discount any movie that is not shot with 3D cameras as being "bad" In fact, a carefully deconstructed 2D image and then digitally rendered to 3D stereoscopic, will resolve single 3D camera compromises/defects in the outcome. It all depends on the skill and budget for the 3D digital rendering, no longer the technological limits.

To understand how stereoscopic camera works, one needs to understand that the camera lens interocular and angle of convergence is a setting that is determined by a mathematical formula that is quite complex. But when the lens angle of view, the near distance and far distance in the scene is entered, the desired compression of the image from real to viewer screen size, we get a setting for the camera lens separation and convergence angle. But this setting is a compromise based on the input parameters. Thus a compromise is used that puts the optimum 3D effect at somewhere in the center of the scene. This makes the parts of the scene not in the center be shot at camera settings that are not optimum. A single 3D camera cannot have more than one setting at one time. So the scene is shot as a compromise. In a scene where the 3D camera uses one interoccular and one convergence angle for all, such as a movie shot with an IMAX camera using 65mm I.O. and parallel, the compromise is even greater because there is not even an adjustment from scene to scene. The whole movie is shot as one 3D camera setting.

In the case of a 3D digital rerendered movie each scene is deconstructed and then each key object is shot by a computer virtual camera and adjusted for 3D and these objects in the scene are composited in 3D space to avoid whole scene compromise. In other words a scene with lots of depth can be shot with a virtual 3D camera so that the equivalent of 65mm IO is used for near obects and a greater IO used for the far objects in the same scene. It isn't actually done that way in the software but you get the idea of the net effect of stereoscopic optimization as a result of using a 3D rendering as opposed to shooting it in 3D.

There are other advantages of producing a movie for 3D digital rendering rather than shooting with 3D cameras and that is the production time with talent is reduced by using 2D as well as being able to use smaller cameras and more cameras for tighter locations. Face it, 3D camera rigs are more than double the cost of 2D cameras so for a given shoot budget we could shoot the scene from 3 locations as opposed to one at a take. Then reshoot the same scene 3 times.
 
You can type all that out, but at the end its a sheer fact that a LOT of conversions do not look anything like a movie shot in native 3D (Green Hornet, Captain America, etc..), they feel flat. Telling me I dont understand how its done has absolutely no bearing on what it looks like on my display. Its a cheaper way out for companies, yet the disc costs more...

My response is, many folks that wear 3D blinders all day long think that because its stamped "3D" on the box you should watch it in 3D :) . I also don't arbitrarily discount 3D conversions either, as stated above in my previous post. The same affect can be said for putting in a 2D disc and turning on 2D-3D conversion in your player or tv, its not that good. Sure it was cool in the beginning, but not once you have seen things like Oz, Resident Evil, etc..., you want nothing less. 3D, even natively shot, can sometimes cause other issues that make it less of a visual presentation that 2D. Sure, its got depth, but other areas can suffer. All of this is why I just wont give a blank check to anyone that slaps a movie in a case and puts a logo on it.

So sure, fault me for wanting all "3D" movies to actually be shot with a damn "3D" camera and to look good. My opinion is, if you arent going to put the effort in it, or it isnt maybe a story that should be shot in 3D, then do not do it and ask me to pay more for it. All of this is why Im thankful reputable sites actually give recommendations on whether to "2D or to 3D". It's hard to go off user opinions, because some are going to say it was good just because it was 3D, others are going to say it was bad just because it was 3D. My goal is to watch the movie in the best format possible for its enjoyment, that isnt always "3D". :)

Now, after all that nonsense :) , I do have a question on conversions for you. When you say the process is more advanced that it was, are you talking its improved in the last year or two, or are you comparing this new 3D revolution to the past. If conversions have gotten better in say the last 1-2 years, I'd be prone to give them more of a consideration now. My ill will toward that word is because when I was buying everything in 3D in 2011, many conversions honestly sucked, yet I spent about $10 more a disc for them...
 
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All of Im thankful reputable sites actually give recommendations on whether to "2D or to 3D". It's hard to go off user opinions, because some are going to say it was good just because it was 3D, others are going to say it was bad just because it was 3D. My goal is to watch the movie in the best format possible for its enjoyment, that isnt always "3D". :)
One site and reviewer I do not trust (because of this reviewer) is High Def Digest, Josh Z. because of his trolling threads at Avs ... ;)
 
I do have a question on conversions for you. When you say the process is more advanced that it was, are you talking its improved in the last year or two, or are you comparing this new 3D revolution to the past.

There are basically 3 types of conversions of real world movies. Real world to filter out all the animations because every one of these is first imaged as 2D and then converted to 3D master.

The most fundamental conversions are done as an extrusion process similar to what is used in TV sets when put in converted 2D mode. This technology has not been used for theatrical release for many years. I doubt you ever saw any of these. example El Vira productions I have a treasured copy of one here that requires special procedure to play it.

the next major improvement in real world conversions was done as a complete scene splitting to two images and then they each were distorted in a way that produced a sort of stereoscopic depth effect. This still had a short life in Hollywood as the ability to render became faster, each scene was manually tweaked to produce a stereo effect. Most of the pre 2013 conversion releases were of this substandard quality. However, the turning point in the industry was the release of Titanic 3D conversion, which won an Academy Award for the 3D conversion technology. The process still used a separation of the 2D image but as I stated before went much deeper into each image by deconstructing all the objects in the scene and rebuilding them as stereo pairs and then these stereo pairs were composited back. This process was a trade secret until the release of the film so no other film used this technology until I believe Star Trek: Into Darkness in May of 2013, and then Pacific Rim 3D rendering. The process is growing in popularity in the industry and since this is far more labor intensive with so few companies able to perform the work, there have been few using the technology. Plus it takes much longer to do a movie taking many months rather than a couple weeks for the conversion.
If you want to see the quality of the latest 3D conversion process- compare your Avengers, Green Hornet, Darkest Hour or Wrath of the Titans with Titanic, Star Trek Into Darkness, or Pacific Rim. I think you will see the improvement unless you have vision problems.

And, BTW- I was not convinced either until I watched Titanic 3D. That movie conversion convinced me, with the right technology, conversion was not only possible, it could be perfect. I only wish I could go back to shooting with a single camera in 2D then do a quality conversion, but I'm not 1000 artists with 1000 computers.

I think you can, with a good eye see the difference in native 3D shot movies and these really good new conversions as the divergences in the extreme depth ranges do not exist in the 3D rendered conversion while even in the most perfect native shot movies, some divergence will show up, especially in low budget films that are shot on a tight schedule.


Don- I'm of the opinion that basing my opinion on these reviewers comments is often ill advised. Heck I even disagreed with Guillermo Del Toro's initial opinion of doing Pacific Rim in 3D. But having seen the film now, I would agree with him that shooting that large set in 3D would have been very difficult to impossible and lack stereo quality. However, with the new process he saw in Titanic, even he was game to supervise the conversion. While I was not a big fan of the story, I felt the technical stereoscopic conversion was even better than Titanic.

Whether Gravity holds up remains to be seen. I hope to get to see it this week at the IMAX screen at World Golf Village. I'll post back with my opinion after then.
 
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Awesome, thats what I wanted to hear, there has been a "leap" in the technology. I agree on Pacific Rim as well, and I was still going to grab the 3D version (watched 2D at theater) because I knew the CGI was rendered as 3D and I want to see it that way.

Is there any way to keep up with this news, and how these movies are 3D converted? I love to be more up to speed on whats going on. Im looking forward to Start Trek this weekend after all the positive comments on the conversion.
 
One site and reviewer I do not trust (because of this reviewer) is High Def Digest, Josh Z. because of his trolling threads at Avs ... ;)

Ive been avoiding those 3D reviews, I was more referring to sites like Cinema Blend and other theatrical movie sites that watch both versions, then give you a review on whether its worth spending you $$$ on the pricier ticket. The 3D conversions are about 50/50, but they usually give native 3D flicks high marks. Im pretty much in a spot where if it's native 3D and its a movie I want to see, Ill 100% get it in 3D. Im watching conversions more closely. One movie I cant find anything about it the 2nd Percy Jackson and its 3D quality.

I guess ive never seen Josh trolling, i generally only read the first post (actual review) in the AVS threads, then avoid the rest. I like Ralph and the other guy, but I also generally agree with HDD reviews with regards to PQ and AQ ratings. They are more real world, vs Blu-ray.com who will give 5 stars for PQ if the Blu-ray looks the way the director intended and how it looked in the theater. For me PQ is a different review, it either looks great, looks bad, or is somewhere in between. I see several intentionally grainy/soft movies that BR.com gives 5 stars to, where HDD gives 3.5-4. I agree more with HDD in their thinking. I don't care if the Director meant for it to look like crap, it still looks like crap :)
 
Keeping up with the technology is easy for me in the circles I travel in such as NAB every year and digging into the software that actually is being used. I also read forums where industry professionals discuss what is being done. But as I said these things are generally trade secret until a movie is released. Now, knockoff software is being sold to do these conversions with state of the art deconstruction / reconstruction as stereo. I would suggest doing a key word search on topics like Professional 2D to 3D conversion software and see what pops up. Then look at the processes on their website. They usually have good tutorials.

Here is a link to YUVSoft
which is an older technology used in the earlier movies that you and I felt was inferior to real twin camera 3D. Watch the two videos on the web page. This process uses a depth map full frame method. It is easier and faster to use than the latest process that uses object deconstruction. I do not have a link handy to that software but I have seen it demonstrated at NAB. If I find something on it I will post it for your interest. BTW- these pro software products are never cheap. For example Blu Ray menu software can cost $50,000 for the full package.

The demo makes use of anaglyph 3D so if you want to see the final composite with depth map get a good pair of 3D red / cyan glasses for viewing 3D on these You Tube videos.
 

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