12 Foot Vs 10 Foot Dishes...

sgs · May 27, 2014

Hi everyone,

I'm wondering if it's worth trying to find and install at 12 foot dish for C-band. I currently have 10 footers and can get most things, but certain weak transponders aren't always perfect. This might be due to tuning, but I've tuned them as best as I can with the various meters and receivers I have. I'm not using LNBs, but I am using the Titanium PLL LNBFs on my dishes.

So, anyone with 12 ft and 10 ft dishes - is there a noticeable difference between the gain, that is to say, will it practically make a worthwhile difference?

Should I look at LNBs over larger reflector size?

As an aside, if anyone knows of 12 ft dishes for sale in Ontario, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, or NY state, let me know...

Thanks
sgs

FaT Air · May 27, 2014

Options: An orthomode transducer. Don't know if there would be appreciable gain.
But have read where some 'swear by them'.
10 or 12 ft BUD
10ft - Gain at 50% efficiency = 39.12 dBi
12ft - Gain at 50% efficiency = 40.70 dBi
14ft - Gain at 50% efficiency = 42.04 dBi
From what 'I know'* it takes 3db to see an appreciable improvement. *up for conjecture.
Might be the 10ft dish isn't as 'perfect' as it could be??
Maybe just replacing it with a higher quality 10????
Don't think any 'backyard' dish will get absolutely everything when the signals aren't meant 'for us' but meant for commercial installations that usually use MUCH larger dishes.
When the local cable 'outlet' had dishes, before installing fiber, they were three @ 16ft and one 12 ft.

primestar31 · May 27, 2014

FaT Air said:
Options: An orthomode transducer. Don't know if there would be appreciable gain.
But have read where some 'swear by them'.
10 or 12 ft BUD
10ft - Gain at 50% efficiency = 39.12 dBi
12ft - Gain at 50% efficiency = 40.70 dBi
14ft - Gain at 50% efficiency = 42.04 dBi
From what 'I know'* it takes 3db to see an appreciable improvement. *up for conjecture.
Might be the 10ft dish isn't as 'perfect' as it could be??
Maybe just replacing it with a higher quality 10????
Don't think any 'backyard' dish will get absolutely everything when the signals aren't meant 'for us' but meant for commercial installations that usually use MUCH larger dishes.
When the local cable 'outlet' had dishes, before installing fiber, they were three @ 16ft and one 12 ft.

There's a Chaparral C/Ku Bullseye OMT for sale on Ebay right now. It's about 1/2 the price of a brand new one.

KE4EST · May 27, 2014

That is a low starting price Prime.

rooneysat · May 28, 2014

sgs said:
As an aside, if anyone knows of 12 ft dishes for sale in Ontario, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, or NY state, let me know...

Thanks
sgs

I got my 8ft mesh dish from Tek2000. They now have 10ft and 12ft mesh dishes in stock. They ship from Ontario.

I am happy with 8ft, but 10ft would have been nice! I think 12ft must be overkill, but I don't have one to try!

Titanium · May 28, 2014

rooneysat said:
I got my 8ft mesh dish from Tek2000.

Welcome back. I see that most of your posts have been about the Tek2000 dishes and performance questions, so maybe you could help shed some light?

Would you mind posting a few photos of your installed dish and close-up photos of the mount, ribs and mesh? There has been understandable concern on the forums about the Tek2000 dishes manufacturing origination in Canada misinformation, build quality and components. It would be great to see some real photos of these dishes installed in North America. Any information about the company and products would be appreciated!

Thanks!

Lak7 · May 28, 2014

"There's a Chaparral C/Ku Bullseye OMT for sale on Ebay right now. It's about 1/2 the price of a brand new one."

For those who like new......
http://catalog.vincor.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=bullseye&Search.x=0&Search.y=0

sgs · May 28, 2014

rooneysat said:
I got my 8ft mesh dish from Tek2000. They now have 10ft and 12ft mesh dishes in stock. They ship from Ontario.

I am happy with 8ft, but 10ft would have been nice! I think 12ft must be overkill, but I don't have one to try!

Thanks for the reminder about that site! I looked at the 12 foot dish they have for sale. The price is $729 USD for a new 11.5 foot (350 cm) mesh dish. I have to admit I'm concerned about what I've read here, in terms of quality of the mesh in particular. In my case, I could always use one of my heavy-duty mounts if the tek2000 mounts are too thin/weak.

Rooneysat, is there any way you could get some pictures posted of your tek2000 dish, as Titanium mentioned? I think there would be many people here who would be interested in seeing it, including me!

Admittedly I already have some 10 footers and have invested a fair bit of money in the hobby, so I probably would look for a used 12 foot dish rather than a new one though.

I'm curious how much any 12 foot dish would really would benefit over a 10 foot dish (not just tek2000 dishes). I've looked at the differences in the dB gain (thanks FaT Air!), but what I'm hoping someone can answer is what the *practical* difference is, from someone who has one.

Dual orthomode has always looked good, especially with PLL LNBs... the cost is the only concern! primestar31, can you link to the eBay listing? For some reason I can't find it on eBay...

Thanks guys!!
sgs

77TA · May 28, 2014

Based on advertised numbers for KTI going from a SI-10 (10ft) to a STI-12 (12ft) has the same increase in gain as going from a S-7.5 (7.5ft) to a SI-10 (10ft). That sounds significant but I can’t speak from actual experience like you’d like. Not too sure there are enough owners of both a 10ft and 12ft to get some real world information. It would be cool to get some actual s/n comparisons of the 2 though.

S-7.5 Gain at 4.2 Ghz is 38.1dBi.

SI-10 Gain at 4.2 Ghz is 40.2dBi.

STI-12 Gain at 4.2 Ghz is 42.3dBi.

Titanium · May 28, 2014

Main lobe gain is one measurement, but side lobe attenuation to minimize unwanted adjacent satellite and other undesireable interference is a major consideration. This is where surface accuracy and relector design become very important.

primestar31 · May 28, 2014

sgs said:
Dual orthomode has always looked good, especially with PLL LNBs... the cost is the only concern! primestar31, can you link to the eBay listing? For some reason I can't find it on eBay...

Thanks guys!!
sgs

It is here: http://tinyurl.com/poax5e4

rooneysat · May 28, 2014

Titanium said:
Welcome back. I see that most of your posts have been about the Tek2000 dishes and performance questions, so maybe you could help shed some light?

Would you mind posting a few photos of your installed dish and close-up photos of the mount, ribs and mesh? There has been understandable concern on the forums about the Tek2000 dishes manufacturing origination in Canada misinformation, build quality and components. It would be great to see some real photos of these dishes installed in North America. Any information about the company and products would be appreciated!

Thanks!

I posted pictures once before of my 8ft mesh dish:

http://www.satelliteguys.us/xen/threads/tek2000-mesh-satellite-pics-fake-pics.333398/

If you want more pics of the 10ft or 12ft, I would just email the vendor.

sgs · May 28, 2014

77TA said:
Based on advertised numbers for KTI going from a SI-10 (10ft) to a STI-12 (12ft) has the same increase in gain as going from a S-7.5 (7.5ft) to a SI-10 (10ft). That sounds significant but I can’t speak from actual experience like you’d like. Not too sure there are enough owners of both a 10ft and 12ft to get some real world information. It would be cool to get some actual s/n comparisons of the 2 though.

S-7.5 Gain at 4.2 Ghz is 38.1dBi.

SI-10 Gain at 4.2 Ghz is 40.2dBi.

STI-12 Gain at 4.2 Ghz is 42.3dBi.

Hmm, if going from a 10 to 12 is anything like going from a 7.5 to a 10, then I would definitely want a 12 foot dish!!

Titanium said:
Main lobe gain is one measurement, but side lobe attenuation to minimize unwanted adjacent satellite and other undesireable interference is a major consideration. This is where surface accuracy and relector design become very important.

Interesting... I thought that the bigger the reflector (and deeper?) would mean that it have less interference from adjacent satellites. Would it be fair to assume that such things are considered on typical used, older 12 foot dishes and that 12s would be "better" or "the same" at reducing interference than 10s?

Hopefully someone with at 12 foot dish can chime in, I'd really like to hear some first-hand experience.

If only there was a used 12 foot dish nearby... $729 is out of my reach for a tek2000 dish (although I could definitely save shipping... I would just drive to Toronto and pick it up).

Thanks primestar31 and rooneysat for the links!

sgs

rooneysat · May 29, 2014

sgs said:
Hmm, if going from a 10 to 12 is anything like going from a 7.5 to a 10, then I would definitely want a 12 foot dish!!
sgs

Simple rule of thumb is this: the reflector gain is proportional to the square of the dish diameter, all other things being equal.

Thus, a 10ft dish will have 1.5625 more gain than an 8ft dish. (10/8)^2=1.5625 This is equivalent to 1.94 dB gain. (10*log1.5625=1.94)

A 12ft dish will have 1.44 more gain over a 10ft dish or about 1.58dB improvement. To get the improvement of a 12ft dish over an 8ft dish, just add the dBs namely: 1.58+1.94 = 3.52dB

Keep in mind that a 3dB gain amounts to doubling your signal strength.

How to put all this in context? Well, long coax runs (greater than 100 ft) will result in 1 dB of signal loss or more. A dual C/Ku-band LNB will result in 1 dB of loss over an optimized C-Band LNB. A poorly aligned dish might also result in 1 dB of signal loss.

I have experimented with my 8ft dish and I can report that almost all transponders in North America can be locked, but you have to be spot on with your dish alignment (especially declination adjustment) and use a single output C-Band LNBF with short coax run. If you want to get a bit of extra signal, then go with the 10ft dish, you will be happier during inclement weather when signals can get a bit attenuated.

As for the 12ft dish, these are probably only meant for commercial use. They are meant for bars, restaraunts, hotels, headends, etc. You probably won't ever need a 12ft dish for residential use.

Xizer · May 29, 2014

32APSK signals need a 12ft dish or even bigger. You can't even lock them with a 10ft. A 8ft dish won't cut it for all the DVB-S2 signals that pop up either if you want completely error-free reception.

Also, there are no more worthwhile "residential uses" for C-band. We all want C-band dishes for their use in receiving signals meant for commercial operations. So all of our dishes are for commercial use.

pwrsurge · May 30, 2014

rooneysat said:
I posted pictures once before of my 8ft mesh dish:

http://www.satelliteguys.us/xen/threads/tek2000-mesh-satellite-pics-fake-pics.333398/

If you want more pics of the 10ft or 12ft, I would just email the vendor.

No offense but it was already stated in that thread by a few members that the pics you took are crap and have been photoshopped as a lame attempt to hide the fact that they were taken in Canada at your Tek2000 headquarters.

rooneysat · May 30, 2014

Pictures I posted were 100% legit and I stand by them. They were my own personal pics. If another member owns a Tek2000 dish, post your pics of your dish to confirm that my pics are indeed real.

It seems like pwrsurge has serious psychological problems and is obsessed with anyone selling C-band dishes.

rooneysat · May 30, 2014

Xizer said:
32APSK signals need a 12ft dish or even bigger. You can't even lock them with a 10ft. A 8ft dish won't cut it for all the DVB-S2 signals that pop up either if you want completely error-free reception.

Also, there are no more worthwhile "residential uses" for C-band. We all want C-band dishes for their use in receiving signals meant for commercial operations. So all of our dishes are for commercial use.

Well, I have to disagree with you on some points. For a C-Band beginner, the 8ft or 10ft dish is just fine. They will get the majority of signals.

Furthermore, I don't think all signals are meant for commercial operations. For example, the international programming is usually state run and targetting the diaspora. A lot of it isn't even carried by cable companies. In many Central and South American countries, the only reliable way to receive TV broadcasts is by C-Band satellite.

The 32APSK signals are experimental and most people probably don't care much about them. If you are a hardcore hobbyist that wants to analyze signals instead of watch tv, then yes, go for 12ft or even 16ft!

mmewrench · May 31, 2014

sgs said:
Hi everyone,

I'm wondering if it's worth trying to find and install at 12 foot dish for C-band. I currently have 10 footers and can get most things, but certain weak transponders aren't always perfect. This might be due to tuning, but I've tuned them as best as I can with the various meters and receivers I have. I'm not using LNBs, but I am using the Titanium PLL LNBFs on my dishes.

So, anyone with 12 ft and 10 ft dishes - is there a noticeable difference between the gain, that is to say, will it practically make a worthwhile difference?

Should I look at LNBs over larger reflector size?

As an aside, if anyone knows of 12 ft dishes for sale in Ontario, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, or NY state, let me know...

Thanks
sgs

Well it sounds like you have your mind made up, but I will add my 2 cents. I recently upgraded from a 10 ft dish to a 12 foot, and noticed a large improvement (up to 15% quality on some sats), using the same feedhorn and lnbs. The day I installed the dish I saw these improvements after an hour of tuning. In my case I also use the dish for Ku so quite a bit more tuning was required. I use a chaparral feedhorn and PLL lnbs, but from what I have read about the titanium C1, you have the best lnbf available for C band. I don't have a decent signal meter so I cant give you exact specs for both dishes, but I will guarantee that you will be satisfied with the upgrade.

Follow this thread http://www.satelliteguys.us/xen/thr...shes-for-you-to-take-a-look-at.327363/page-89, You may find exactly what you are looking for.

For what its worth, anything posted by pwrsurge should be taken with a grain of salt. It seems that he has his own agenda and most of the time he is plugging his own product, and Rooneysat seems to be following in his footsteps (hmm plugging Canadian/Chinese products could they be the same person).

sgs · May 31, 2014

mmewrench said:
Well it sounds like you have your mind made up, but I will add my 2 cents. I recently upgraded from a 10 ft dish to a 12 foot, and noticed a large improvement (up to 15% quality on some sats), using the same feedhorn and lnbs. The day I installed the dish I saw these improvements after an hour of tuning. In my case I also use the dish for Ku so quite a bit more tuning was required. I use a chaparral feedhorn and PLL lnbs, but from what I have read about the titanium C1, you have the best lnbf available for C band. I don't have a decent signal meter so I cant give you exact specs for both dishes, but I will guarantee that you will be satisfied with the upgrade.

Follow this thread http://www.satelliteguys.us/xen/thr...shes-for-you-to-take-a-look-at.327363/page-89, You may find exactly what you are looking for.

For what its worth, anything posted by pwrsurge should be taken with a grain of salt. It seems that he has his own agenda and most of the time he is plugging his own product, and Rooneysat seems to be following in his footsteps (hmm plugging Canadian/Chinese products could they be the same person).

Excellent, thank you mmewrench. That's the kind of feedback I was interesting in hearing... "real world" experience of the difference!

Now I just need to find a good 12 footer < 400 miles away, LOL.

sgs

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